What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Unicron]

If you mean the more conventional phasers that were rarely used, they were animated as coming from somewhere close to the bridge module despite no such emitters being part of the model. IIRC, it was only the one emitter that was used during the fight with the Lakota and not in any other episodes, although my memory might be faulty.

I do recall that some sources like Starfleet Command 3 suggest the pulse phasers have a trade off for their increased power, because of how the shape of the energy differs. They deal more damage than a conventional beam but at the cost of having less range, somewhat like how the Romulan plasma weaponry tends to be highly destructive but unstable enough that most other races haven't made as much use of it. The Defiant's mobility easily offsets the range problem.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If you mean the more conventional phasers that were rarely used, they were animated as coming from somewhere close to the bridge module despite no such emitters being part of the model. IIRC, it was only the one emitter that was used during the fight with the Lakota and not in any other episodes, although my memory might be faulty.

I do recall that some sources like Starfleet Command 3 suggest the pulse phasers have a trade off for their increased power, because of how the shape of the energy differs. They deal more damage than a conventional beam but at the cost of having less range, somewhat like how the Romulan plasma weaponry tends to be highly destructive but unstable enough that most other races haven't made as much use of it. The Defiant's mobility easily offsets the range problem.

From what I can observe:

+ StarFleet Phaser Beams are optimized for:
- Consistent Continuous DoT (Damage Over Time)
- Potential for Extreme Range (Stated Maximum Effective Range is 1 Light-Second ~ 300,000 km) Combat
- High Speed Tracking & Steering of Beam (Ability to find target and move the beam as necessary to follow target, regardless of the target's manueverability)
- Works on nearly any possible target
- Very flexible in weapons deployment on the vessels hull
- Very easy to scale up power output

+ StarFleet Phaser Bolts are optimized for:
- High Burst Damage per Energy Projectile
- Ease to Repeatedly Rapid Fire Shots like shown on the USS Defiant
- Ability for Projectile to overwhelm shields & devastate armor
- Much Shorter Range than Continuous Beams
- Lack of Ability to Steer the beam after initial firing
- You basically need to design the weapons platform around the weapon
- Usage of weapon requires a very specific type of combat doctrine & tactics

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

What I'm getting from this thread at this point is that there are one of 3 positions taken by most.

What ships should have been used during the Dominion War?

1. The ships they used were fine. There are real world and in-universe reasons why ships that are identical to 110 year old ships are fine for combat.

2. They really should have mixed in some newer ships and upgraded existing designs. The idea of ships looking the same for 110 years but being much stronger is a stretch.

3. Some combo of both.

In other words, to the question, "What ships should have been used during the Dominion War?" there are two answers:

1. Exactly the ships they used.
2. Something somewhat different but similar in spirit.

I can't dispute that there is a lot of evidence that the ships they used got the job done...and done well, but I think it's fair to say that choice 2 from either of my sets above is a lot more fun. No amount of evidence changes the fact that seeing some newer ships would have made more sense, had we not been shown what we were shown onscreen. I get the impression folks want to defend the choices that were made at the time because they do not want to see changes in a remaster. I totally see that point, but that question is a different question from "What ships should have been used during the Dominion War?"

 

[Tim Walker]

Considering my own suggestion (a few years back) that the Sovereign was originally intended to replace the Excelsior as a multi-role cruiser. The most important role would be defense. (The Border Wars weren't that long ago).

The Obenas would have been constructed as test beds for Sovereign technologies.

I can see the Wambundu class also being intended as multi-role cruiser. And was massively up gunned with a torpedo magazine/torpedo tube pod. And was renamed the Akira class.

I think of the Norway class as a warp sled that was rebuilt as an anti-Borg monitor.

 

[Dukhat]

I can see the Wambundu class also being intended as multi-role cruiser. And was massively up gunned with a torpedo magazine/torpedo tube pod. And was renamed the Akira class.

How do you come to that conclusion from a conjectural unseen design?

 

[Tim Walker]

It would help to explain why a number of Akira would be available for the battle of Sector 001, as well as the Dominion War. Instead of starting a new design for a large warship, and then building from scratch, existing hulls would be up gunned by swapping out an external pod.

I have had to come up with explanations as to how the Federation suddenly had large warships. One crucial resource-time-was in very short supply.

 

[Dukhat]

It would help to explain why a number of Akira would be available for the battle of Sector 001, as well as the Dominion War. Instead of starting a new design for a large warship, and then building from scratch, existing hulls would be up gunned by swapping out an external pod.

I have had to come up with explanations as to how the Federation suddenly had large warships. One crucial resource-time-was in very short supply.

Shelby stated that Starfleet would have the ships they lost at Wolf 359 replaced in less than a year. For all we know, the FC ships we saw were those replacements.

And I’m still not sure how you get Akiras from Wambundus, of which the only things we know about the latter class is that its top speed is warp 3 and that they were medical transports.

 

[Tim Walker]

"Wambundu" is a place holder name. I have seen different designs being presented as the Wambundu. Perhaps the canon ship is actually based on another (place holder) name class.

 

[Dukhat]

I think the Akiras are just Akiras, not some other older class that was refit. Based on their designs and registry numbers, they seem to have been produced in the 2350’s or ‘60’s.

 

[Ithekro]

If so, they were likely designed to fight the Cardassians and might have been upgraded to combat the Borg.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

How do you come to that conclusion from a conjectural unseen design?

As opposed to what the poster had written, I had used some kind of logic with the NCC numbers, references to the USS Drake from season 1 of TNG, etc. to come up with the suggestion that that was the name given to the remaining last batch of Constituion-class ships, such as depicted in Leah Brahms' office with the sideways nacelles and cargo bays where the observation decks would be. I'm not really sure what logic I was using, but it worked for me as a possible reason why the Wambundu class could be a cruiser, then a freighter, and possibly a medical ship as well.

EDIT: I will try to recall my logic and post it at some point.

EDIT: Here's the way I through about it:

-Thew number of NCC-20381 is for vessel 381 of batch 20, giving it an age around the movie era.
-Miranda class ships are seen as cargo ships in TNG, when they are an older class.
-Daedalus class ships are seen as medical ships in the game Star Trek: Legacy, when they are supposed to be an older class.
-The warp scale changed for TNG, so that a ship half as fast would have been normal for speed in a prior era. It is noted at Ex Astris Scientia that the Drake may have been a cruiser but is now considered a transport.

 

[Dukhat]

The Drake was mentioned in dialogue as a 'light cruiser,' for whatever that's worth. Obviously the TMP Constitution class was listed as a heavy cruiser, so there's a discrepancy there if you're assuming that the version with the sideways nacelles and cargo bays was meant to be the Wambundu class.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

there's a discrepancy

Maybe, maybe not...

The Drake was mentioned in dialogue as a 'light cruiser,' for whatever that's worth.

In the 2360s, so presumably relative to the standard of that era...

Obviously the TMP Constitution class was listed as a heavy cruiser

In the 2260s to 2280s, so again relative to the standards of that era.

Given that the Connie is roughly the length of the Intrepid-class but considerably less massive overall, IMO we can reasonably assert that the Connie would not be considered a "heavy cruiser" in the 2360s, but might rather be a "light cruiser" or perhaps even a "frigate" (the TNG-era frigates Renegade and Thomas Paine are identified as New Orleans-class vessels by BTS info, and those are plausibly the mid-century equivalent of the Intrepid-class).

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe, maybe not...



In the 2360s, so presumably relative to the standard of that era...



In the 2260s to 2280s, so again relative to the standards of that era.

Given that the Connie is roughly the length of the Intrepid-class but considerably less massive overall, IMO we can reasonably assert that the Connie would not be considered a "heavy cruiser" in the 2360s, but might rather be a "light cruiser" or perhaps even a "frigate" (the TNG-era frigates Renegade and Thomas Paine are identified as New Orleans-class vessels by BTS info, and those are plausibly the mid-century equivalent of the Intrepid-class).

I think that's probably why those naval designations stopped being used after the first season of TNG. They really don't mean much when you have ships from a century before serving alongside brand-new ships.

 

[Arpy]

^ indeed.

Also to consider is the way they play fast and loose with these terms. The Refit is a heavy cruiser yet the Klingons refer to it as a battle cruiser.

The Defiant is an escort vessel yet it’s the most lethal ship in the fleet.

The Galaxy is an “explorer” in the TNG technical manual yet it’s the heavy cruiser of its day on TNG, and, indeed, a battleship in the Dominion War.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Also to consider is the way they play fast and loose with these terms. The Refit is a heavy cruiser yet the Klingons refer to it as a battle cruiser.

Which actually makes sense, as those have historically been basically the same thing, except that heavy cruisers are perhaps a little more versatile which fits Starfleet's SOP.

The Defiant is an escort vessel yet it’s the most lethal ship in the fleet.

Proportionally, yeah. But there are larger ships that can easily outgun it.

The Galaxy is an “explorer” in the TNG technical manual yet it’s the heavy cruiser of its day on TNG, and, indeed, a battleship in the Dominion War.

I'd say that the Galaxy was always the heavy cruiser/battlecruiser as even the "war variants" were "optimised for combat" largely by omission* and they still have the same generalist built in. Honestly, I'd go against the consensus and put the Sovereign and maybe Akira-class designs as the "battleships" of the era (though I doubt that Starfleet would acknowledge this).

*NB This doesn't apply to the Galaxy-X variant, that is a battleship, even if Starfleet is more likely to refer to as something like an "Exploratory Command Ship" or something similarly non-militaristic.

 

[Arpy]

Proportionally, yeah. But there are larger ships that can easily outgun it.

Later. After they got upgrades.

I'd say that the Galaxy was always the heavy cruiser/battlecruiser as even the "war variants" were "optimised for combat" largely by omission* and they still have the same generalist built in. Honestly, I'd go against the consensus and put the Sovereign and maybe Akira-class designs as the "battleships" of the era (though I doubt that Starfleet would acknowledge this).

Battleship suggests size as well as armament. The Sovereign’s a cruiser and the Akira a frigate in my book.

With weapons upgrades the Galaxy easily fits the bill for a battleship throughout the Dominion War era. Nothing’s come close to its displacement. It’s got plenty of room for more weapons, a fleet of support/fighter/drone craft, and to carry an occupying force. The D was far below capacity in peacetime.

-

The Prometheus is a funny one. Its key component is one for combat. Making one ship into three. How would you classify that? Light cruiser? Frigate? Escort?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Battleship suggests size as well as armament.

To a certain extent for practical reasons, however, it's never actually been an inherent feature of the type. Technically speaking all Federation starships could be regarded as battleships as they appear to be able to defend against the equivalent to their own weapons (and sometimes better, particularly in the case of the Danube-class).

The Sovereign’s a cruiser and the Akira a frigate in my book.

The Sovereign's at least a heavy cruiser/battlecruiser as it's "smaller" than the Galaxy-class mainly because it has less "wasted space", both in terms of it's overall external profile and the likely internal spaces included (no classrooms, less arboretums, science labs and the like).

The Akira seems to be a lot more focused on combat and logistics than the other designs that I'd usually peg as a frigate (New Orleans, Intrepid) and STO describes it as as "Heavy Escort"*, putting it in the same lineage as the Defiant, Saber and Prometheus as "small to mid-size combat vessels", which I'd say is accurate enough.

With weapons upgrades the Galaxy easily fits the bill for a battleship throughout the Dominion War era.

They certainly got the shield upgrades that at least some of the fleet got to defend against the Breen, but AFAIK the only other "upgrades" were a few extra phaser emitters to close some blindspots.

Nothing’s come close to its displacement. It’s got plenty of room for more weapons, a fleet of support/fighter/drone craft, and to carry an occupying force. The D was far below capacity in peacetime.

I certainly wouldn't argue with you on that, but save for weapons (as noted, not really in evidence), none of those make it a battleship, if anything it would be a better candidate for the fighter-cruiser or cruiser-carrier designation, or perhaps "space control ship".

The Prometheus is a funny one. Its key component is one for combat. Making one ship into three. How would you classify that? Light cruiser? Frigate? Escort?

Star Trek Online mostly puts them at the top of the "Escort" lineage as the Advanced Escort, IRL it doesn't really fit anywhere (the Defiant-class has a similar problem) although "light battlecruiser" or "pocket battleship" might work as the non-PC designation.


* A Command Cruiser variant was added in a recent update, FWIW.

 

[Arpy]

To a certain extent for practical reasons, however, it's never actually been an inherent feature of the type. Technically speaking all Federation starships could be regarded as battleships as they appear to be able to defend against the equivalent to their own weapons (and sometimes better, particularly in the case of the Danube-class).

Warships, not battleships.

The Sovereign's at least a heavy cruiser/battlecruiser as it's "smaller" than the Galaxy-class mainly because it has less "wasted space", both in terms of it's overall external profile and the likely internal spaces included (no classrooms, less arboretums, science labs and the like).

We don’t know any of this. And I’d be willing to bet there’d be an arboretum on the Sovereign if it was used on TNG. Hell, the Miranda Class Saratoga had families on board.

They certainly got the shield upgrades that at least some of the fleet got to defend against the Breen, but AFAIK the only other "upgrades" were a few extra phaser emitters to close some blindspots.

In the same way the rest of the fleet got upgraded shields they got upgraded weapons. They’d be no match against the Dominion or Borg otherwise. That was the point of the Defiant. The Lakota confirmed this, with no difference in appearance to the ship or weapons/shields.

I certainly wouldn't argue with you on that, but save for weapons (as noted, not really in evidence), none of those make it a battleship, if anything it would be a better candidate for the fighter-cruiser or cruiser-carrier designation, or perhaps "space control ship".

Again, they all play double duty as warships, not battleships. And the sheer number of Galaxys and the way they were used suggest battleship.

Star Trek Online mostly puts them at the top of the "Escort" lineage as the Advanced Escort, IRL it doesn't really fit anywhere (the Defiant-class has a similar problem) although "light battlecruiser" or "pocket battleship" might work as the non-PC designation.

We’re told the Defiant is classified as an escort so I guess we go with that.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

In the 2260s to 2280s, so again relative to the standards of that era.

The Refit is a heavy cruiser yet the Klingons refer to it as a battle cruiser.

I think that the term "battle cruiser" is just what Klingons call cruisers, including their own, because it sounds intimidating, not that it is meant to be larger than a heavy cruiser in any Federation terminology.

the Miranda Class Saratoga had families on board.

So perhaps these ships changed roles and got a smaller crew to be able to be used in the procedures happenning during the TNG-era?