"Good Episodes" you think are bad?

[Vger23]

"Measure of a Man" is a fine episode, but I find it wildly overrated and somewhat dull.

"I, Borg" is one I've never really understood the hype around. Yeah, I guess it has an interesting "moral dilemma," but many Trek episodes do, and this one does not really hold my attention.

Almost all of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 are beloved. I usually completely skip them in a rewatch.

"Subspace Rhapsody" was an experimental vanity project.

"Mathematically Perfect Redemption" is the only episode of Star Trek I have turned off, and it was pretty much the final nail in the "Lower Decks" coffin for me.

"Star Trek IV- The Voyage Home" is almost universally loved. It's easily my least-favorite of the TOS films.

 

[Artoo Atari]

"Measure of a Man" is a fine episode, but I find it wildly overrated and somewhat dull.

"I, Borg" is one I've never really understood the hype around. Yeah, I guess it has an interesting "moral dilemma," but many Trek episodes do, and this one does not really hold my attention.

Almost all of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 are beloved. I usually completely skip them in a rewatch.

"Subspace Rhapsody" was an experimental vanity project.

"Mathematically Perfect Redemption" is the only episode of Star Trek I have turned off, and it was pretty much the final nail in the "Lower Decks" coffin for me.

"Star Trek IV- The Voyage Home" is almost universally loved. It's easily my least-favorite of the TOS films.

Except for the LD example (which I've never watched), I completely agree with each of these. For various reasons, I generally skip these episodes on rewatch. Of the TV episodes mentioned above, those TNG episodes are kind of boring, those DS9 episodes mentioned are a little too silly, and the SNW episode is just too ... wow, I don't even know where to begin... I couldn't finish it.

I can always sit down and watch II and III, and if I'm in the mood, maybe TMP and VI. I enjoyed IV for a while after it first came out, but I've really lost interest in it over the years. I don't think I've sat through V in its entirety since I first saw it in the theater.

 

[Vger23]

I don't think I've sat through V in its entirety since I first saw it in the theater.

I honestly think V is fun and has a lot of redeeming qualities. Out of the 6 TOS films, it's probably most like the original series. It's certainly not perfect, but it has a lot of good buried in there. I'd give it a re-watch!

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Sisko deciding to stay on AR-558...

When he beamed down, both the CO and XO had been killed, leaving a Lt. in charge. Plus, a large force was beamed down to the Dominion camp, so Sisko likely realized he would need to stay to bolster the lines and protect the asset they have been fighting over. With a few more people with them (Sisko, Dax, Bashir, Nog), it was a needed boost. Especially since it was Dax who found a way to reuse the Houdinis and knock down a lot of the Jem'Hadar to elevate their odds more.

(Not saying Lt. Larkin wasn't capable, but Sisko certainly would have more experience dealing with the Dominion than her. Plus, fresh eyes are better, particularly after months of fending off attack after attack and being more demoralized by the day as they kept losing people. And as Reese said in the beginning that it wasn't the captain's problem since he was about to leave, Sisko clearly saw he needed to stay to send the message that it IS his problem, too. That's one of the many reasons why Sisko is the best captain... he gets his hands dirty and works with his crew, right in the trenches. That earns a great deal of loyalty.)

 

[Oddish]

Measure of a Man will always be a favorite of mine, for a number of reasons. Not the least that it puts Picard and Riker in opposite corners and makes them duke it out. Peak Performance, by contrast, could have done the same, but it didn't have the balls to have either of them lose. Which kind of sucked. It's only saving grace was Data's difficulty with facing defeat.

Regarding Little Green Men, it's an intriguing idea, but there was no way they could get it done and dusted in 44 minutes. It would have made a good two-parter, though.

 

[Farscape One]

"Peak Performance" is one of my absolute favorites of TNG because it utilizes everyone really well.

Picard talking to Data in his quarters was an especially great scene, one of a long list of excellent Picard/Data scenes in TNG.

 

[Sakonna]

Oh, movies! I didn't think of movies.

I don't like Wrath Of Khan. It's one great scene with the Ceti eel, and then a lot of dullness. Nothing about this movie pulls me in.

In terms of Trek movies, I might actually prefer "Section 31" to Khan.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wait, people think the episode where Vulcans invented Velcro is good?

I know I do.

 

[Citiprime]

"Peak Performance" is one of my absolute favorites of TNG because it utilizes everyone really well.

Picard talking to Data in his quarters was an especially great scene, one of a long list of excellent Picard/Data scenes in TNG.

There have been times in my life where I've been very, very down about something where I felt like I did everything possible to make it work, and for whatever reason it didn't. And I come back to the "It's possible to make no mistakes and still lose" scene and it feels like a warm blanket on a cold day.

"That is not a weakness. That is life."​

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'll go first: The Inner Light. I did not like The Inner Light. I found it to be boring.

Yeah, "The Inner Light" is one I've never much cared for, either. Our glimpses into Picard's alternate life are so brief that I never got very into them. It plays more like an outline than a finished story.

"I, Borg" I hate because I've always thought the moral dilemma it presented was asinine. The Borg were the one set of villains on TNG who had absolutely NO empathy and absolutely NO capacity to be reasoned with. "The Best of Both Worlds" clearly showed that freeing Picard from the Collective was a one time only thing, so everyone on the crew suddenly getting all mushy about their Pet Borg & giving him a name just didn't play for me at all. The show made it pretty clear they were Space Nazis Squared who were guilty of genocide on a galactic scale. Removing the Borg from the universe would be an absolute good, IMO.

I find "The Drumhead" horribly heavy-handed and obvious. You can tell where it's going before the end of the first act, Jean Simmons is WAY too broad, and I've never cared for Picard suddenly making Norah Satie go nutzo by citing a made-up quote from her made-up career. (Or her father's. I forget.)

And like Melinda M. Snodgrass, I find "The Offspring" WAY too similar to "The Measure of a Man," especially just one season later. So a year after Data is established as a sentient being with his own free will, Starfleet is suddenly stepping in saying he can't build a child? I don't buy it.

And "Darmok" is an episode I don't find terribly entertaining anymore, mainly because once you get the twist that the alien captain is speaking in metaphor, there's not much else to recommend the episode. And really, Picard has so little in the way of basic survival skills that he can't build a simple campfire?

Sorry they're all TNG episodes, but those are the first ones that occurred to me. In the TOS era, I find "Journey to Babel" a little overstuffed. We've got the alien ambassadors AND the murder mystery AND the drama between Spock and his parents AND Sarek has a heart attack AND Kirk gets stabbed... It's almost too much for one episode.

"Star Trek IV- The Voyage Home" is almost universally loved. It's easily my least-favorite of the TOS films.

Yeah, I don't enjoy TVH as much these days. Once you know all the jokes, it's not as entertaining.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Regarding Sisko deciding to stay on AR-558...

When he beamed down, both the CO and XO had been killed, leaving a Lt. in charge. Plus, a large force was beamed down to the Dominion camp, so Sisko likely realized he would need to stay to bolster the lines and protect the asset they have been fighting over. With a few more people with them (Sisko, Dax, Bashir, Nog), it was a needed boost. Especially since it was Dax who found a way to reuse the Houdinis and knock down a lot of the Jem'Hadar to elevate their odds more.

(Not saying Lt. Larkin wasn't capable, but Sisko certainly would have more experience dealing with the Dominion than her. Plus, fresh eyes are better, particularly after months of fending off attack after attack and being more demoralized by the day as they kept losing people. And as Reese said in the beginning that it wasn't the captain's problem since he was about to leave, Sisko clearly saw he needed to stay to send the message that it IS his problem, too. That's one of the many reasons why Sisko is the best captain... he gets his hands dirty and works with his crew, right in the trenches. That earns a great deal of loyalty.)

Like Dick Winters, Sisko was leading from the front.

 

[Oddish]

"I, Borg" I hate because I've always thought the moral dilemma it presented was asinine. The Borg were the one set of villains on TNG who had absolutely NO empathy and absolutely NO capacity to be reasoned with. "The Best of Both Worlds" clearly showed that freeing Picard from the Collective was a one time only thing, so everyone on the crew suddenly getting all mushy about their Pet Borg & giving him a name just didn't play for me at all. The show made it pretty clear they were Space Nazis Squared who were guilty of genocide on a galactic scale. Removing the Borg from the universe would be an absolute good, IMO.

I actually agree with you. Considering the sheer destruction wrought by the Borg, the greater good was clear. However, Starfleet generally puts morality above the greater good. Unless you're Tuvix or a hologram of Geordi LaForge.

And like Melinda M. Snodgrass, I find "The Offspring" WAY too similar to "The Measure of a Man," especially just one season later. So a year after Data is established as a sentient being with his own free will, Starfleet is suddenly stepping in saying he can't build a child? I don't buy it.

I think Starfleet's concern was that they didn't want both Soong androids on the same ship... if the Enterprise was destroyed, there would be none left.

Personally, I think that Starfleet's research division should have brought Lal back to Earth... along with Data, because he was the only person who had successfully built a Soong type android. So promote him to commander or captain and put him in charge of the project.

 

[maneth]

Where do I start?

I despise Space Seed with a completely irrational, visceral hatred. Khan Noonien Singh is such a slimy character that just looking at him makes me feel sick, and I do not understand what Marla saw in him. The last ten minutes somewhat redeemed her as she at least saved her crewmates, but just no. The episode is among my three least favorite TOS episodes, along with Turnabout Intruder and Spock's Brain. Those two were slightly saved by absolutely amazing acting, like the dead eyes of Spock make you think there's no consciousness inhabiting that body and the way Shatner and Sandra Smith mirror each other's body language. TWOK is also my least favorite Trek movie and the fan service remake Into Darkness is only marginally better.

Another character I absolutely can't stand is Q, so Encounter at Farpoint is by far my least favorite Trek pilot episode. The only episode where I find him even marginally tolerable is the one where he's temporarily mortal.

I'm a translator and linguist, and I can't stand Darmok because it's so illogical to speak only in metaphor without being able to explain the concrete background to the metaphor. Human languages certainly don't work like that, and I have a hard time accepting an alien civilzation would survive long enough to evolve to that point.

 

[Qonundrum]

"I, Borg" is one I've never really understood the hype around. Yeah, I guess it has an interesting "moral dilemma," but many Trek episodes do, and this one does not really hold my attention.

Seconded, it definitely drags and then some character contrivances feel way too forced to fir the storyline to believe. Yeah, that one deserves kudos for trying to shake up and expand the format, as well as looking for the latest moral dilemma fad, but it stumbles way too much and Beverly gets, oddly, some of the best and the worst lines in the story.

"Star Trek IV- The Voyage Home" is almost universally loved. It's easily my least-favorite of the TOS films.

^^this

IMHO, it's too much of its time and hasn't dated well because it clings to 1986 than it does 2286ish. Some jokes are just too topical and, if it didn't feel like a sitcom then it definitely has since. Worse, the emphasis on comedy became a "must have" for just about every Trek film following it. Which is ironic since TVH uses a "fish out of water" trope for a lot of the jokes, which is why it worked in the first place - something that could not be done later on as the crew were plopped back into their own lake and now, ha ha and in grotesquely overly-contrived scenes, the engineer bumps his head on every bulkhead, navigator and helmsmen get lost easily, communications officer can't speak Klingon, the new ship has everything failing (even the log entry book)... never mind what TNG devolved into, it's no wonder we got the tonal whiplash in "Nemesis" in what felt like a last ditch attempt to get the ship back on course (no pun intended, oddly.) On the plus side, all of "Nemesis"'s problems are due to the script being stuffed with more ideas and not letting any of them flow naturally, on top of yet more contrivances. But for all its problems, NEM (and even INS) are more watchable than TVH.

 

[Qonundrum]

Where do I start?

I'm a translator and linguist, and I can't stand Darmok because it's so illogical to speak only in metaphor without being able to explain the concrete background to the metaphor. Human languages certainly don't work like that, and I have a hard time accepting an alien civilzation would survive long enough to evolve to that point.

^^this, great point

Even entertaining the idea that other species might have different structure doesn't work as, with no universal translator, the Tamarians are using English metaphors mixed-up. If they did survive long enough, the greater complexity definitely wasn't hinted at in the story. Makes for a cool iron-on t-shirt patch, though.

I despise Space Seed with a completely irrational, visceral hatred. Khan Noonien Singh is such a slimy character that just looking at him makes me feel sick, and I do not understand what Marla saw in him.

The plot is inconsistent and vague, but isn't the audience supposed to hate him for being slimy like that? I'll get back to the plot points in a second, but first:

It might have been easier to understand why a 20th century human would have had the jiggies for Khan. But 23rd? McGivers, whose name and profession Kirk readily dismisses (it's almost fourth wall*) and given the esoteric relevance of her position it's hard to blame him at times. Human history couldn't match up with other species' histories at all and nobody was expecting a bunch of humans in a sleeper ship so far away from Earth. it's one delightful plot contrivance, which has to be rolled with for the story to work.

* and if it is, it's the best type because it doesn't consciously detract from the story for the sake of a self-aware meta ha-ha joke. But Kirk had made quips in the past that weren't meta, so this is still in-character for season one Kirk.​

All the bridge crew have that scene where they're romanticizing the guy and Spock chimes in, but Kirk did make an interesting point with:

KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.​

Even in the 23rd century, humans weren't perfect. The only difference is, none of the dudes had jiggy for Khan and, being 1960s television, that wouldn't have been hinted at. Then again, the episode also states that records from that time period were rare, so how does everybody know for oh-so-sure he was really bad toward his people? Because the story goes out of its way because it wouldn't be very interesting otherwise, not to mention Khan wanting to take the ship but was seemingly quick to want to make it go boom-boom like a sun going supernova because... there's 5 minutes left in the story?! Yeah, "Space Seed" has some terrific acting and one-liners (especially by the sarcastic and sardonic Dr McCoy), but the underlying plot trying to hold it all together isn't perfect either.

The last ten minutes somewhat redeemed her as she at least saved her crewmates, but just no.

The power of plot - should have been a song written by a rock band.

The episode is among my three least favorite TOS episodes, along with Turnabout Intruder and Spock's Brain. Those two were slightly saved by absolutely amazing acting, like the dead eyes of Spock make you think there's no consciousness inhabiting that body and the way Shatner and Sandra Smith mirror each other's body language. TWOK is also my least favorite Trek movie and the fan service remake Into Darkness is only marginally better.

I'm starting to agree with your points a lot more. The acting is played with total sincerity and verisimilitude that, goofy plot ideas aside, was a lot easier to buy into. Smith and Shatner both excel.

That said, "Spock's Brain"'s big idea of having a brain run a glorified HVAC system as the big reveal is one of many factors that rightly put it into the "bad episode" category but, dang, Nimoy makes Spock work incredibly well. Plus, the bridge scene where everyone gets to say their theory as to which planet might just be the one was pretty cool. Shame the projection viewscreen was replaced after that episode with overlay as well...

Into Darkness was hit or miss, and the worst part is that it didn't need Khan whatsoever as, until that sappy reveal, the movie felt like it was doing something properly new. That "plot twist" puts it under TWOK for me as it's not even innovative.

Another character I absolutely can't stand is Q, so Encounter at Farpoint is by far my least favorite Trek pilot episode. The only episode where I find him even marginally tolerable is the one where he's temporarily mortal.

I'm going to go cry now... LOL, just kidding. I can sorta see why the unpredictable chaotic-neutral trope would be disliked. Chaotic-evil in "Q Who" where his antics kill 18 crew. Chaotic-good in some later stories, especially "True Q" and "All Good Things".

 

[Sakonna]

TWOK is also my least favorite Trek movie and the fan service remake Into Darkness is only marginally better.

I'm glad there's someone else who likes Into Darkness more than TWOK! Though I would say it's waaaaaay better, instead of just marginally.

When I'm ranking the 14 films, Darkness is near the top, and TWOK is definitely only a few slots up from the bottom.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Worse, the emphasis on comedy became a "must have" for just about every Trek film following it. Which is ironic since TVH uses a "fish out of water" trope for a lot of the jokes, which is why it worked in the first place - something that could not be done later on as the crew were plopped back into their own lake and now, ha ha and in grotesquely overly-contrived scenes, the engineer bumps his head on every bulkhead, navigator and helmsmen get lost easily, communications officer can't speak Klingon, the new ship has everything failing (even the log entry book)...

This is an excellent point. The humor in STIV works for the same reason the humor in Back to the Future and Time After Time works: Because the time travelers are out of their natural elements and have an ignorance of the way things work in the time they've traveled to. The crew is back to their own time period in STV, so unfortunately the humor fell back on slapstick rather than the character based banter that worked so well in the Gene Coon era of TOS and in TWOK and TSFS. (All of the humor in TMP is very restrained and dry and not especially in character for anyone. That may have been Gene Roddenberry's preference, but for most of the runtime, it makes that movie feel like watching paint dry.) STVI brought back some of the character based humor, which I think works much better for Trek.

And personally, I'm fine with the scene in STVI where Uhura can't speak Klingon and the bridge crew is frantically trying to look up the right phrases in a pile of books. I've long thought of Uhura as being more of a technician than a Hoshi Sato-style super-linguist (notice how often she does things like rewiring her station or cleaning up garbled messages rather than translating languages), so I'm fine with her not knowing every single Klingon dialect. And the two Klingons at that listening station seem to be speaking some obscure archaic regional dialect ("Whither are you bound?"), so IMO, it's fine that it flummoxes Uhura a bit. Just imagine that she knows 70 of the 76 known Klingon languages and this is the one that's always stumped her.

Plus, the scene is funny, and funny will make you forgive a lot.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Human languages certainly don't work like that, and I have a hard time accepting an alien civilzation would survive long enough to evolve to that point.

It might make sense if they're verbalizing what their species shared telepathically with each other (but in such a way that Deanna cannot sense it) - so all the emotion and context is bound up in their shared visions. leaving non-Tamarians with sentences sans context.

Human history couldn't match up with other species' histories at all and nobody was expecting a bunch of humans in a sleeper ship so far away from Earth. it's one delightful plot contrivance, which has to be rolled with for the story to work.

A Human history expert sure would have come in handy when they found all those parallel Earths - she may not have been able to know all the ways their histories diverged, but she might have a greater appreciation for what happened.

And for all Kirk's claims that she does nothing, perhaps she normally splits her time between personal (art) projects, random ship duties when it's all hands on deck, and compiling a historical perspective of the five year mission - so she probably spends a great deal of time in her quarters and the library. Bookworm Kirk finds her reading every time he sees her, so has no idea what she does.

 

[at Quark's]

On TNG, "Measure Of A Man" consistently leaves me cold. The device of Riker arguing for the prosecution, I just can't buy it, it's too forced for me to invest in anything else happening.

I agree to a certain extent this one is overrated. That is to say, I don't think it's a bad episode but it's one that is too heavy-handed, too forced, too contrived (I mean, it's beyond ridiculous that Starfleet would've accepted Data as a student and then have him serve as an officer for years and never ironed this issue out before Maddox comes up with this claim, just to have this courtroom setting). In short, it takes itself too seriously.

That said, I do appreciate it as a valiant effort, and an episode that probably did pave the way for future high quality more 'philosophical' TNG episodes.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

What a shame that "The Offspring" and "The Measure of a Man" didn't occur in reverse order, with Lal surviving/reviving. We could have had Lal wishing to attend the Academy, and the issue would be that she's an artificial lifeform which was created by another artificial lifeform, Data. So once removed from human creation.