Spoilers The Controversial Star Wars Opinion Thread

[fireproof78]

I think he has more agency than you're giving him credit for.
Nobody forced him to murder a whole village of Tuskens. One could argue temporary insanity, but he then utterly fails to report his actions to the counsel, and surrender himself to face justice for his unspeakable crimes. That's a choice. He chose to remain a Jedi because he likes to feel powerful and important.

Nobody forced him to flagrantly violate Jedi rules and get married, let alone making others complicit in the deception so he gets to maintain a position of privilege. He could have left the order, married Padme, and the Order wouldn't have stopped him. He chose to have a wife AND remain a Jedi. It wasn't about what was right or just, it was about what he wanted for himself. Again, he chose power and prestige.

Palpatine may have whispered in his ear, suggested, or even gaslit from time to time, but he never forced Anakin to do *anything*. He could have saved Windu and ended Palaptine right then and there. He chose the opposite because he wanted to keep Padme. Nevermind the fact that if Padme have been given the choice, she wouldn't have hesitated to sacrifice her life to bring an end to tyranny. That was entirely Anakin's choice, and he again chose the selfish option. It have nothing to do with Padme's welfare and everything to do with his own possessive wants and needs.

I don't see how Obi-Wan is responsible for any of this. He taught Anakin all he needed to be a Jedi, but you can't teach a person to be selfless if they don't want to be. Ultimately, Anakin could not and would not let go of the things he thought should be his.

This selfish tendency even extends into his relationship with Ahsoka. The way he talks about her after she leaves, you'd think she deliberately did so to spite him. He talks about her letting him down. Then what she comes back, he hands her sabres back to her (about as personal a possession as any Jedi could have), only for her to find that he's gone and altered them to reflect himself; changed the blades to show *his* colour. That's a choice, and whether he consciously understands the underlying motivation or not, he chose to mark Ahsoka (in her absence) as "his".

As for Windu; he clearly had his own flaws, but not teaching Anakin well enough is hardly one of them. For starters he's not his Padawan and so that's not his responsibility. For another thing; he's proven right about Anakin in the long run. He was too old to be trained, and he proved he was not trustworthy.

Plus of course there's the most important decision ever made; to sacrifice his life to save his son, and free the galaxy in the process. Finally; a selfless choice. So yeah; agency abounds!

Your argument is well put and I don't disagree with any of it.


I was opinining on the opinions expressed around the Jedi and their treatment of Anakin, as though he had no agency to make choices despite harsh and difficult circumstances.

No one's a writer, until they write something. You might surprise yourself.

Sorry for the derail. Back to your regularly scheduled 'Controversial Opinions'.

I welcome it.

Everyone needs to start somewhere. Tolkien wasn't a writer but a professor yet somehow he did it.

And there's more than one way to write otherwise the fiction section wouldn't be so big at my local Barnes and Noble.

 

[Ceridwen]

The Jedi never gave him the emotional tools to deal with what everyday people deal with.

I don't agree, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from. We see Yoda, the head of the entire order, taking time to specifically council Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. They are clearly trying to help him.

And Anakin lies in his counseling session. By omission, but still. You can't get the help you need when you hide things from your therapist. Yoda still tries, as did Obi-Wan before him.

 

[BillJ]

I don't agree, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from. We see Yoda, the head of the entire order, taking time to specifically council Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. They are clearly trying to help him.

And Anakin lies in his counseling session. By omission, but still. You can't get the help you need when you hide things from your therapist. Yoda still tries, as did Obi-Wan before him.

The whole "no attachments" thing doesn't work when someone has already made attachments in youth. I don't think the Jedi knew how to deal with that situation. Hence, they really couldn't advise Anakin on things like personal tragedy.

 

[EnderAKH]

I'm more of a In-Universe Lore Master & Technical Details guy.

Not a Writer. I leave the writing to the Professional Writers.

I'll come up with the World Building, the technical specs, the historical progression, etc.

So you want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars without doing the years of work Kevin Feige did to become the position he's in now? You and most every other fan who ever played with Star Wars action figures as a kid. Go get a job as somebody's assistant, and work your way up.

 

[Ceridwen]

The whole "no attachments" thing doesn't work when someone has already made attachments in youth. I don't think the Jedi knew how to deal with that situation. Hence, they really couldn't advise Anakin on things like personal tragedy.

"Attachment" and the lack thereof, as the Jedi use the term, is a Buddhist concept that people absolutely turn to later in life. Not everyone who practices Buddhism is raised to it from infancy, but anyone can learn to let go of that which they cling to.

Obi-Wan can't advise Anakin on personal tragedy? He wept while Qui-Gon died in his arms. He has first hand experience in having to let go.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So you want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars without doing the years of work Kevin Feige did to become the position he's in now? You and most every other fan who ever played with Star Wars action figures as a kid. Go get a job as somebody's assistant, and work your way up.

I don't want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars.

Thats not the job I want. There's a completely different job that is specifically related to Technical Writing & Background Lore.

 

[BillJ]

I don't want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars.

Thats not the job I want. There's a completely different job that is specifically related to Technical Writing & Background Lore.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

 

[EnderAKH]

I don't want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars.

Thats not the job I want. There's a completely different job that is specifically related to Technical Writing & Background Lore.

For which, again, you would need that thing. What's it called? Oh yeah, experience. That thing you typically need to get a job.

 

[Reverend]

The Jedi never gave him the emotional tools to deal with what everyday people deal with.

I'd say that there is a substantially wide gulf between "has emotional issues that were not being 100% addressed in the best way possible", and "is therefore not responsible for innumerable homicides, war crimes, being party to genocide, and a willing participant in a totalitarian regime for two and a half decades that imposed suffering and death on untold trillions.", and as such getting from one to the other would necessitate a leap of super-human magnitude.

Other people get orphaned and raised by monastic orders and somehow manage not to murder a single person, even a little bit. Anakin wasn't tricked into being evil. That's not how evil works. It's always a choice.

"Attachment" and the lack thereof, as the Jedi use the term, is a Buddhist concept that people absolutely turn to later in life. Not everyone who practices Buddhism is raised to it from infancy, but anyone can learn to let go of that which they cling to.

Obi-Wan can't advise Anakin on personal tragedy? He wept while Qui-Gon died in his arms. He has first hand experience in having to let go.

And practiced what he preached when he was forced to watch Satine be murdered, and didn't break, didn't seek vengeance, didn't even let this influence his judgement when her sister came for help in taking Maul down.

Hell, he even treated Maul with no small degree of compassion in the end. First by refusing to engage in a confrontation he was sure to win, and when his hand was forced by the involvement of a third innocent party and a direct threat to Luke, he ended it quickly, efficiently, dispassionately, and even comforted Maul in his final moments.

But sure, what did Obi-Wan know about teaching emotional maturity and self-discipline?

 

[Ceridwen]

I don't want to be Kevin Feige for Star Wars.

Thats not the job I want. There's a completely different job that is specifically related to Technical Writing & Background Lore.

You want Pablo Hidalgo's job.

He didn't get it by telling Lucasfilm he knew better than George Lucas what Star Wars was. He got it by working for West End Games and StarWars.com for decades before moving into the position he has now. His career path also doesn't really exist the way it used to; publishing is an entirely different ecosystem now.

But good luck.

 

[Tuskin38]

You want Pablo Hidalgo's job.

Yeah, that's basically what the story group does outside of consulting.

 

[BillJ]

Star Wars, to me, is the Skywalker family. Anything outside of that, I have little to no interest in.

 

[Xerxes82]

I don't agree, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from. We see Yoda, the head of the entire order, taking time to specifically council Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. They are clearly trying to help him.

And Anakin lies in his counseling session. By omission, but still. You can't get the help you need when you hide things from your therapist. Yoda still tries, as did Obi-Wan before him.

This, absolutely. The Jedi failed Anakin, not in failing to instill in him some ability to deal with his emotions, but rather in not understanding that there could be selfish motivation to Anakin's every action. They saw the outward appearance of (mostly) good Jedi behavior, they saw a charismatic and seemingly empathetic boy grow into a courageous war hero.

What they never saw was the truth of why Anakin does the things he does. They saw heroic outcomes and so presumed selfless motives. But every action Anakin ever takes in his entire life, excepting the very last action aboard the DS2 in RotJ, is selfish. It serves Anakin and if it happens to serve anybody else than that's great but it's secondary. This is why his fall is ultimately unsurprising. He simply continues the same trajectory he had taken his whole life, except now suddenly his actions and outcomes no longer reflect the Jedi position but the Sith, which serves Anakin better in pursuit of his own goals in that moment.

 

[Mage]

I don't agree, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from. We see Yoda, the head of the entire order, taking time to specifically council Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. They are clearly trying to help him.

And Anakin lies in his counseling session. By omission, but still. You can't get the help you need when you hide things from your therapist. Yoda still tries, as did Obi-Wan before him.

Sure, but a counselor/therapist should create an environment where things feels safe. Yoda, and others, basically starting ranting from day one that Anakin has emotions and he needs to turn them off. Just flick the switch. Little kid grew up in a hellhole, had only one support system (his mum) and that was taken from him. The people that basically took him never even gave him a healthy way to deal with all the emotions a kid like him would have. They basically tell him 'stop feeling'.

 

[Ithekro]

You want Pablo Hidalgo's job.

He didn't get it by telling Lucasfilm he knew better than George Lucas what Star Wars was. He got it by working for West End Games and StarWars.com for decades before moving into the position he has now. His career path also doesn't really exist the way it used to; publishing is an entirely different ecosystem now.

But good luck.

Hell, I wanted Pablo Hildalgo's job, back when he got it. I think I even applied for it. Problem was I was entering college at the time, not leaving it. No experience.

As for the poly-dark sider cult idea. Sure, it could be used. It wouldn't be the Sith. It would need its own name and function. It would still be dark siders, and I have doubts on its power since we are not certain that force users always give birth to force users.

So far that has been the case, but our sampling size is limited.
Shmii who what not know to be a Force user gave birth to Anakin. Anakin's kids (Luke and Leia) are both force users, and Leia's kid (Ben) was a Force user.
Kanan's son Jacen is a Force user.
Palpatine's clone/son was not a force user, but his granddaughter was a Force user.
The Witches of Dathomir and other witches seem to have some children who are Force sensitive, but it is unclear if all can, or if some of that is strictly witchcraft enabled Force abilities. Maul, Savage, and Ventress are examples, as are Osha and Mae (though they are a special case, as are a lot of these as they involve "The Chosen One Prophecy")

In current Canon, I am uncertain if we have other examples. Were any of Mundi's kids Force sensitive? We can guess that Obi-wan's brother was not Force sensitive and any children had were also not. Sabine's family appears to not be Force sensitive, but she is likely a very distant descendant of Tarre Vizsla the first Mandorian Jedi, but she is very weak for a Jedi, likely below normal training requirements. All known members of Yoda's species have the Force, but the sample size is three.

Qui-Gon asked Shmii who was the father, so best guess is that it sometimes works, but not always. The Jedi don't seem to have breeding programs and instead search the galaxy via Republic screening tests. And out of the entire Republic, they only seem to be able to maintain around 10,000 Jedi Knights of various ages out of trillions+ of beings from many, many species.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

As for the poly-dark sider cult idea. Sure, it could be used.

According to Wookiepedia:

The Force - Powers & Abilities:

Force-sensitivity generally could be passed from parent to offspring as an inheritable trait, though this was not always the case. The Force was strong with the Skywalker family as well as the Palpatine family.[9] The twins Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa were born Force-sensitive like their father, the Chosen One Anakin Skywalker, as was Organa's son, Ben Solo. Unlike the members of Anakin Skywalker's bloodline, the son of Galactic Emperor Sheev Palpatine—the Sith Lord Darth Sidious—did not inherit his father's connection to the Force. The Emperor's son was an artificial strandcast, a byproduct of the Sith Eternal cult's cloning experiment with Sidious' genetic template. However, the Emperor's cloned son sired a natural-born daughter, Rey, who was Force-sensitive as a result of her descent from Sidious, her paternal grandfather.[39]

It was possible for siblings born to normal parents to not share a talent for Force sensitivity. Such was the case with Zare and Dhara Leonis. While Dhara, from an early age, could always sense her brother's presence, Zare never had this talent, nor any special abilities that could be attributed to the Force.[40] The technique of "Magick" was an aspect of the Force,[41] with the Nightsister Talzin claiming it allowed her to become a Force user through unnatural means.[42] Despite what non–Force-sensitives often believed, using a Force power was not as simple as waving one's hands, as channeling the Force took an effort, especially for individuals like Ty Yorrick, who had been through trauma. Being surrounded by negative emotions also made it hard for a light side user to focus on their abilities,[43] creating a weakness that was once exploited by Marchion Ro, who surrounded an imprisoned Jedi Master with people being constantly tortured in order to hinder his ability to call on the Force.[27]

It wouldn't be the Sith. It would need its own name and function. It would still be dark siders, and I have doubts on its power since we are not certain that force users always give birth to force users.

I would avoid the names of "Jedi/Sith" completely and use something else since their era is now over.
Their religious view on "The Force" is now a remnant of history.
It's time that new Force Religions & Views take over.

Force Usage is generally inheritable in most cases, in a worst case scenario, it skips a generation if you are using clones.
See Above for details.

The Jedi don't seem to have breeding programs and instead search the galaxy via Republic screening tests. And out of the entire Republic, they only seem to be able to maintain around 10,000 Jedi Knights of various ages out of trillions+ of beings from many, many species.

Now imagine if all 10,000 of those Jedi Knights were in a different program / Force Religion.
One where they were allowed to have normal relations while learning & training in "The Force".

Then over 1000 years, there would be so many Force users, that it would be pretty common sight in the Universe to see "Force Sensitives".

In fact, it'd be so common, that people would WANT to marry into a Force Sensitive family so their children can benefit by having force powers.

It'd be highly desirable to marry into that type of family for all the abilities it could pass onto the next generation of children.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Other people get orphaned and raised by monastic orders and somehow manage not to murder a single person, even a little bit. Anakin wasn't tricked into being evil. That's not how evil works. It's always a choice.

Not all monastic orders train their disciples to be the best warriors in the galaxy and equip them with the best weapons in the galaxy. My point here is that you can't compare outcomes under different monastic orders, if the opportunities for their disciples to commit crimes aren't equivalent. What isn't being controlled for is the possibility that human nature might just be human nature, and that it's a reduction of opportunity to harm that reduces harm.

 

[Ithekro]

I image the Jedi might have been able to deal with Anakin's issues had the Clone Wars not started right after his mother's death. The Jedi basically were thrust into something they were not trained for and were not supposed to participate in (being soldiers) while delving into conflict. The imbalance in the Force caused by the war clouded things even more than before. This also basically given the Jedi almost zero time to reflect on things like they would normally. Anakin is basically one of their most active commanders of the Grand Army of the Republic and is away a lot fighting. Yoda's solution to Anakin's attachment issues was to give him Ahsoka to train. The idea being that not only would he be training her, she would be training him to be responsible. The end goal would be that when she became a Jedi Knight he would have to let go, as she would no longer be his student (much like Anakin was no longer Obi-wan's student). Unfortunately, Anakin did not learn this lesson, and the course of the war (and the Jedi Council) drove Ahsoka away from the Order, and caused Anakin to have more issues (resentment on top of attachment issues).

There were a lot of things the Jedi were going to look into, but were holding off until the war ended. Like the whole Clone Army thing. Anakin was another thing they were putting off doing until the war ends. And you can tell the Jedi aren't suppose to do war, by all the war crimes they commit in doing so that soldiers would know you are not supposed to do.

 

[Ceridwen]

Sure, but a counselor/therapist should create an environment where things feels safe. Yoda, and others, basically starting ranting from day one that Anakin has emotions and he needs to turn them off. Just flick the switch. Little kid grew up in a hellhole, had only one support system (his mum) and that was taken from him. The people that basically took him never even gave him a healthy way to deal with all the emotions a kid like him would have. They basically tell him 'stop feeling'.

"Basically ranting"? His mom gave him the same advice they did. "It is time for you to let go. You can't stop the change, any more than you can stop the suns from setting."

She was also raising him in an environment where they were both slaves with bombs implanted in their bodies. The economic circumstances that cause Watto to sell her to Cliegg likely don't exist if Qui-Gon doesn't intervene (Anakin had never even finished a race before, it's only with Jedi coaching that he managed it). There's only so supportive she can be before the stress gets to him, and then what? He does to her what he did to his (equally supportive, and looks suspiciously like his mom) wife?

 

[Set Harth]

Nobody forced him to murder a whole village of Tuskens.

As the saying goes, you can't eat just one. I've killed so many Tuskens. And also Jawas, including the cringing harmless ones. The ones who grenade or shoot you are a different story: they needed killin. I've even seen Jawas with pink double lightsabers. The AUDACITY!