Your opinion on SNWs Gorn

[Dukhat]

Time traveling Romulas account for changes like moving the Eugenics Wars from the 1990’s to several decades later in the 21st century. It could also move the date to Gorn first contact earlier in the timeline. Time traveling Romulans = Superboy hitting the walls of reality to change things in Dc Comics’ timeline.

Could someone refresh my memory? When La’an went back in time to the 21st century and met boy Khan, did she act like this was anything out of the ordinary? Did she say, “WTF? Why is Khan a little boy in the 21st century when he should be an adult who left Earth in 1996 on board a sleeper ship?”

(If TPTB are willing to say "Yes, we're changing things from TOS" then I am happy to meet them half way.)

That’s just it. They’re not willing to say that. They want to say that it all fits together when it very clearly doesn’t.

 

[HotRod]

Could someone refresh my memory? When La’an went back in time to the 21st century and met boy Khan, did she act like this was anything out of the ordinary? Did she say, “WTF? Why is Khan a little boy in the 21st century when he should be an adult who left Earth in 1996 on board a sleeper ship?”

Nope. Only the Romulan makes mention of anything being out of place.

That’s just it. They’re not willing to say that. They want to say that it all fits together when it very clearly doesn’t.

It mostly fits together. Which can pretty much be said of all the series.

 

[Dukhat]

Nope. Only the Romulan makes mention of anything being out of place.

So if La’an always thought that Khan was a boy in the 21st century, then was the timeline already changed from day one of DSC?

It mostly fits together. Which can pretty much be said of all the series.

I’ve changed my view of the show from it taking place in an alternate timeline to it being a fictionalized interpretation of actual events, which is also how I feel about Lower Decks.

 

[HotRod]

So if La’an always thought that Khan was a boy in the 21st century, then was the timeline already changed from day one of DSC?

As far as I'm concerned, it's been changed since day one of TNG.

 

[Dukhat]

As far as I'm concerned, it's been changed since day one of TNG.

I respect your opinion. And I can see why people might think that, since it was Roddenberry’s intention to invalidate TOS and the TOS films with his newer, better version of Star Trek. But not long after season 2 ended and Gene lost whatever creative control he had, all of that went out the window and future executive producers treated TOS as being firmly part of the canon. No, none of it fits together perfectly (which is why I often chuckle when some CBSTrek producer makes the claim that it does), but from TNG season 3 onwards, it seems to me that TOS was being respected in its original form.

Now with all that said, do I think TOS is dated and needed an update? Yes. I just don’t like what they did with the Gorn

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

Okay, but TNG's first episode says World War Three happened in the late 21st century. Clearly a change from TOS saying it was in the nineties. Now that we have an explanation for the switch, it might as well be used to explain that discrepancy.

 

[Dukhat]

Okay, but TNG's first episode says World War Three happened in the late 21st century. Clearly a change from TOS saying it was in the nineties. Now that we have an explanation for the switch, it might as well be used to explain that discrepancy.

From what I recall, there was always some confusion about whether WWIII and the Eugenics wars were the same thing, even during TOS. And Encounter at Farpoint doesn’t make that distinction either. But between Space Seed and TWOK, there was very little wiggle room about the year that Khan and his followers left Earth.

 

[BillJ]

...since it was Roddenberry’s intention to invalidate TOS and the TOS films with his newer, better version of Star Trek.

I know this is the popular thought, but to be moving away from TOS, he sure did lean on it, a lot, through the first few episodes of TNG.

 

[Dukhat]

I know this is the popular thought, but to be moving away from TOS, he sure did lean on it, a lot, through the first few episodes of TNG.

Roddenberry-think: There’s a difference between what you saw on screen and how those events actually happened.

(I believe this is even mentioned in the TMP novelization.)

But yeah, I agree that TNG had lots of callbacks to TOS despite Gene’s intentions to invalidate it.

 

[Tallguy]

From what I recall, there was always some confusion about whether WWIII and the Eugenics wars were the same thing, even during TOS.

And now that I look at this closer I cannot see why that would be the case. The only time they talk about the Eugenics Wars it is explicitly called World War III. WWIII is mentioned twice in TOS. And only once was it said that it happened in the 1990s.

Spock: The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
McCoy: The Eugenics Wars.

It doesn't get more plain faced than that.

It's not like WWIII was moving around during TOS. Mentioned only once more in Bread and Circuses. And it's not mentioned again until Farpoint. (Although TWOK reiterates that Khan is from 1996.)

I suppose if anything you can say "the post-atomic horror" does not say that IT is related to WWIII. But that seems unnecessarily obtuse.

 

[Dukhat]

And now that I look at this closer I cannot see why that would be the case. The only time they talk about the Eugenics Wars it is explicitly called World War III. WWIII is mentioned twice in TOS. And only once was it said that it happened in the 1990s.

Spock: The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
McCoy: The Eugenics Wars.

It doesn't get more plain faced than that.

It's not like WWIII was moving around during TOS. Mentioned only once more in Bread and Circuses. And it's not mentioned again until Farpoint. (Although TWOK reiterates that Khan is from 1996.)

I suppose if anything you can say "the post-atomic horror" does not say that IT is related to WWIII. But that seems unnecessarily obtuse.

Didn’t TOS also state that humanity avoided a world war?

 

[BillJ]

Didn’t TOS also state that humanity avoided a world war?

I think the fact that they just tried to tell the best story from week-to-week, regardless of what came before, is one of those things I loved about TOS. Each episode could truly be seen as its own universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Didn’t TOS also state that humanity avoided a world war?

Omega Glory has Spock mentioning Earth avoiding a war between Eastern and Western powers, but does not call it a World War.

 

[BillJ]

Omega Glory has Spock mentioning Earth avoiding a war between Eastern and Western powers, but does not call it a World War.

He also could've been referencing a war fought with biological weapons.

 

[Dukhat]

Omega Glory has Spock mentioning Earth avoiding a war between Eastern and Western powers, but does not call it a World War.

He also could've been referencing a war fought with biological weapons.

Thanks for the reference.

MCCOY: The problem is, it could be anything Some spores or pollen in the air, some chemical. Just finding it could take months, maybe even years. And I've only got one lead. The infection resembles one developed by Earth during their bacteriological warfare experiments in the 1990s. Hard to believe we were once foolish enough to play around with that.

Then later:

SPOCK: Kohms? Communists? The parallel is almost too close, Captain. It would mean they fought the war your Earth avoided, and in this case, the Asiatics won and took over this planet.

First, the ‘1990’s bacteriological warfare experiments’ don’t seem to have anything to do with WWIII (or the Eugenics wars, for that matter.) Second, Spock’s statement seems to heavily imply that the war ‘your Earth avoided’ was in fact a third world war. Does the dialogue explicitly say that? No. Is there wiggle room for some sort of other interpretation of Spock’s line? Yes. Are the writers heavily implying that Earth did not have the world war that Omega 4 had, between the analogous democratic country (USA) and the analogous communist country (China) and whatever other countries participated or were indirectly affected? Almost certainly.

 

[BillJ]

Is there wiggle room for some sort of other interpretation of Spock’s line?

I think there's enough wiggle room there to drive a Mack truck through.

Though it in no way bothers me that they have conflicting views regarding World War III.

 

[Dukhat]

I think there's enough wiggle room there to drive a Mack truck through.

Though it in no way bothers me that they have conflicting views regarding World War III.

All right, let me ask you a question. What would you call a war between two major superpowers which resulted in the complete devastation of the entire world?

 

[BillJ]

All right, let me ask you a question. What would you call a war between two major superpowers which resulted in the complete devastation of the entire world?

I'm not saying they didn't fight a world war, I'm saying that Earth in the Trek universe didn't fight their war with biological weapons, like Omega IV did.

We have a reference to a third world war in "Bread and Circuses".

Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

The Star Trek Transcripts - Bread And Circuses

 

[Dukhat]

So Spock’s statement translates as ‘Your Earth avoided a war with biological weapons, but instead had a war with nuclear weapons.”

I’m not sure that was the intent of the line. I think the writers were either unfamiliar with the past WWIII references, knew about them but didn’t care, or knew about them and did care, but realized it wouldn’t work with their story and opted to be ambiguous about it. If I had to guess, it would probably be the first option.

 

[BillJ]

So Spock’s statement translates as ‘Your Earth avoided a war with biological weapons, but instead had a war with nuclear weapons.”

I’m not sure that was the intent of the line.

No. "Your Earth avoided a war with biological weapons." There is no other qualifier needed.