The War Games -- colororized

[Mr Awe]

^ This might not be the "cool, hip" opinion to have but I actually quite like the idea of colorizing content that was originally B&W. As with anything, there are better and worse examples of it.

It's not the original intent, I know. But I'm sure if the original producers had an affordable choice, they'd have shot in color. I'm sure someone will come along and say, "No they wouldn't!" but history proves that as color became affordable, it became the default choice.

And the B&W originals still exist for the ultra purist!

Having said that, I have a hard time picturing these colorized, truncated classic DW stories becoming popular. I'm assuming the intent is to get people who'd never what a long, B&W story with slow pacing by today's standard to watch these new versions. And it's just hard to see that group becoming very interested in these options.

But, I guess we'll see! It's a worthy experiment.

 

[Qonundrum]

^ This might not be the "cool, hip" opinion to have but I actually quite like the idea of colorizing content that was originally B&W. As with anything, there are better and worse examples of it.

It's not the original intent, I know. But I'm sure if the original producers had an affordable choice, they'd have shot in color. I'm sure someone will come along and say, "No they wouldn't!" but history proves that as color became affordable, it became the default choice.

I'm sure the makers in 1963 would have wanted color. But it wasn't available, so they used techniques to make the B&W version look better. That's why the Daleks, in color photos of the time, have weird blue and other colors -- to make the end result in B&W look more striking. Ditto for the TARDIS console being pale green, when recorded onto B&W videotape, it's hue offsets the walls.

And the B&W originals still exist for the ultra purist!

I've heard zero complaints on that. Most existing fans are either against colorization or are upset that there's re-editing (regardless of reasons, which most people do know) and new music applied.

Having said that, I have a hard time picturing these colorized, truncated classic DW stories becoming popular. I'm assuming the intent is to get people who'd never what a long, B&W story with slow pacing by today's standard to watch these new versions. And it's just hard to see that group becoming very interested in these options.

^bingo.

That's the claimed intent, though I doubt modern audiences "can't handle the pacing", "can't handle black and white", "can't handle all the quiet", or whatever the reasons are. Yet Doctor Who used to hold its own and let good scripts and acting render the need for constant music unneeded, and between action and build-up scenes there was exposition or breather time. But the show was originally made to be watched episode-by-episode, not as an omnibus as well. In that aspect, it's interesting to update them, even if excised material may or may not add to the story's nuances.

In the end, will modern audiences really care? Did they for "The Daleks in Colour"?

But, I guess we'll see! It's a worthy experiment.

It will be for sure.

But notice in that the experiment is lessened by the fact that "The Daleks" was precedent, done first. It was also truncated to 75 minutes. "The War Games" is set to be 90 minutes, but that includes 10 minutes of new footage. Fans from a recent convention are also claiming that actors in the original had recorded new dialogue - whether or not that's true, but "The Daleks" had lines changed as well.

This new footage also includes a direct representation of the regeneration because, in 1969, there was no direct regeneration. It was kept vague and not made/shown on screen with a new actor, because the show might not have been renewed due to season 6's problems with hemorrhaging ratings, going over budget too often, story content failing -- it all allowed the Doctor's loosely-told origins to finally be explained as a final bookend, should the show not have been renewed. Fun fact, a couple of weeks later, Star Trek took the timeslot after season 6 ended. But WHO was renewed, season 7 was made and with Earth (via exile) as a focal point to keep costs down. It started great, ratings went downhill again (from 8 to 5 million), and was teetering again - thankfully the show was ultimately kept on and was revamped again for season 8, that worked with ratings going back up and not going back down to 5, and the rest is history.

(On edit: Minor clarification that does not affect content of paragraph.)

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm sure the makers in 1963 would have wanted color. But it wasn't available, so they used techniques to make the B&W version look better. That's why the Daleks, in color photos of the time, have weird blue and other colors -- to make the end result in B&W look more striking. Ditto for the TARDIS console being pale green, when recorded onto B&W videotape, it's hue offsets the walls.



I've heard zero complaints on that. Most existing fans are either against colorization or are upset that there's re-editing (regardless of reasons, which most people do know) and new music applied.



^bingo.

That's the claimed intent, though I doubt modern audiences "can't handle the pacing", "can't handle black and white", "can't handle all the quiet", or whatever the reasons are. Yet Doctor Who used to hold its own and let good scripts and acting render the need for constant music unneeded, and between action and build-up scenes there was exposition or breather time. But the show was originally made to be watched episode-by-episode, not as an omnibus as well. In that aspect, it's interesting to update them, even if excised material may or may not add to the story's nuances.

In the end, will modern audiences really care? Did they for "The Daleks in Colour"?




It will be for sure.

But notice in that the experiment is lessened by the fact that "The Daleks" was precedent, done first. It was also truncated to 75 minutes. "The War Games" is set to be 90 minutes, but that includes 10 minutes of new footage. Fans from a recent convention are also claiming that actors in the original had recorded new dialogue - whether or not that's true, but "The Daleks" had lines changed as well.

This new footage also includes a direct representation of the regeneration because, in 1969, there was no direct regeneration. It was kept vague and not made/shown on screen with a new actor, because the show might not have been renewed due to season 6's problems with hemorrhaging ratings, going over budget too often, story content failing -- it all allowed the Doctor's loosely-told origins to finally be explained as a final bookend, should the show not have been renewed. Fun fact, a couple of weeks later, Star Trek took the timeslot after season 6 ended. But WHO was renewed, season 7 was made and with Earth (via exile) as a focal point to keep costs down. It started great, ratings went downhill again (from 8 to 5 million), and was teetering again - thankfully the show was ultimately kept on and was revamped again for season 8, that worked with ratings going back up and not going back down to 5, and the rest is history.

(On edit: Minor clarification that does not affect content of paragraph.)

I guess by and large I think times and viewers have changed so drastically (pacing, SFx, etc) that these old productions will seem kind of alien. Just not of interest to most younger viewers even with being colorized, edited, etc. There will surely be a few younger fans interested in the shows history but this is a cohort who is watching less TV in general anyway.

Agreed, they knew how to make B&W look amazing back in the day. And interestingly the light green console was made canon (queue someone saying there is no DW canon) during the Pertwee era where you can see it in color.

 

[Qonundrum]

I guess by and large I think times and viewers have changed so drastically (pacing, SFx, etc) that these old productions will seem kind of alien. Just not of interest to most younger viewers even with being colorized, edited, etc. There will surely be a few younger fans interested in the shows history but this is a cohort who is watching less TV in general anyway.

True on all counts... kudos to the makers for trying to edit these and such. But if many younger viewers got bored with the original "Pyramids of Mars" in waiting 120 minutes for Sutekh to turn everyone into wispy sand but didn't, then many in those same audiences probably won't like anything else with the old show, because classic DW was more often about the suspense and buildup of a monster's threat, rather than the whiz bang of it for the whiz bang of it because of the whiz bang of it. It takes all kinds, though.

Agreed, they knew how to make B&W look amazing back in the day. And interestingly the light green console was made canon (queue someone saying there is no DW canon) during the Pertwee era where you can see it in color.

In early Pertwee, the show was on its last legs and they weren't going to refurbish or build anything new. I'm amazed they spent the money to chuck in a couple of green light bulbs into the knackered console for "The Ambassadors of Death". That probably cost less than to disassemble the console, paint all its panels white, then reassemble it. Digression time: Season 13 was when the console got its first major update. Season 14 ditched it all with the puny console with shaving mirror on it and even smaller area, with new and just as uninspired walls. Season 15 reverted, thankfully, with new roundeled walls as well as a better-looking console (refurbished from the original).

 

[Christopher]

Digression time: Season 13 was when the console got its first major update. Season 14 ditched it all with the puny console with shaving mirror on it and even smaller area, with new and just as uninspired walls. Season 15 reverted, thankfully, with new roundeled walls as well as a better-looking console (refurbished from the original).

Apparently the reason for the change was that the prop and special-effects unions kept insisting the console was the other guys' responsibility, which led to production delays, so they just avoided the issue by building the season 14 console with no moving parts. I think that ongoing union dispute was also the reason we never saw the console room in Baker's first season, and only a couple of times in his second. (Since the first Who I saw was Baker's first season, I spent the first five or six weeks wondering if we'd ever see what was inside the blue box.)

 

[Chakoteya]

Colour me ultra-purist, then. Or Classic, as I prefer. Shows made for B&W do so with that in mind - the makeup, the costumes, the colour of the sets are all designed to be seen at their best in monochrome.

With that out of the way - I might be curious to see this cut-down artificially painted version, just to pass the time...

 

[Christopher]

Colour me ultra-purist, then. Or Classic, as I prefer. Shows made for B&W do so with that in mind - the makeup, the costumes, the colour of the sets are all designed to be seen at their best in monochrome.

Yes. Also, the idea that color is automatically an "improvement" on black-and-white is nonsense. B&W is not just the absence of color, it's a distinct visual style and language of its own, one that paints with light and shadow rather than hue. Sometimes it's actually an improvement on color. For instance, the B&W first season of Lost in Space looks better than the subsequent color seasons, less garish and more atmospheric.

Arguably, with something low-budget like Doctor Who in those days, color may just make it look more fake. B&W gives it a more abstract quality that can make it easier to suspend disbelief.

 

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Colour me ultra-purist, then. Or Classic, as I prefer. Shows made for B&W do so with that in mind - the makeup, the costumes, the colour of the sets are all designed to be seen at their best in monochrome.

With that out of the way - I might be curious to see this cut-down artificially painted version, just to pass the time...

I mean, I'd actually pay money, to see "Raumpatrouille – Die phantastischen Abenteuer des Raumschiffes Orion" - or just "Space patrol Orion" in colour, but I honestly say: "We don't need that. It is a B&W show and it should stay a B&W Show".

Yes. Also, the idea that color is automatically an "improvement" on black-and-white is nonsense. B&W is not just the absence of color, it's a distinct visual style and language of its own, one that paints with light and shadow rather than hue. Sometimes it's actually an improvement on color. For instance, the B&W first season of Lost in Space looks better than the subsequent color seasons, less garish and more atmospheric.

Arguably, with something low-budget like Doctor Who in those days, color may just make it look more fake. B&W gives it a more abstract quality that can make it easier to suspend disbelief.

Indeed - just think of the first scene of Doctor Who. The camera-work, the policeman walking in the fog, slowly the "I.M. Foreman"-sign... it added a sense of mystery to the whole shabang. I highly doubt, that this would work that well in colour.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yes. Also, the idea that color is automatically an "improvement" on black-and-white is nonsense. B&W is not just the absence of color, it's a distinct visual style and language of its own, one that paints with light and shadow rather than hue. Sometimes it's actually an improvement on color. For instance, the B&W first season of Lost in Space looks better than the subsequent color seasons, less garish and more atmospheric.

Arguably, with something low-budget like Doctor Who in those days, color may just make it look more fake. B&W gives it a more abstract quality that can make it easier to suspend disbelief.

What I hear you saying is that B&W can be better than poorly done color. I agree. However, as a whole, the world has moved on from B&W and considers color to be the superior choice. I have no doubt that the producers and directors of early DW would've chosen color if it was a reasonable option.

That all said, I haven't seen the Daleks color version so I can't comment on how well its been done.

 

[JD]

B&W does seem to be kind of coming back, at least for some people. There have been a few of movies the last few years that have released an alternative B&W version, like Fury Road, and there was another one a few months ago, but I can't remember what it was now.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I just don't see the harm in colorization or why people get so upset about it as long as the original is still available. I think George Lucas has given everyone PTSD about these sort of things by withholding originals in favor of updates.

 

[Christopher]

I just don't see the harm in colorization or why people get so upset about it as long as the original is still available.

The problem is the promotion of the attitude that color is superior or more desirable, which makes it harder for B&W works to gain appreciation or attention. If a colorized version is more popular than the original, if it crowds out the original, I'd say that does do harm to the original. What good is having it still available if fewer people want to seek it out?

Besides, it's just vandalism to slather color onto something that was meant to be black and white. The intent of the creators should be respected. And colorization, in my experience, usually looks cheesy and bad, because it's an incongruous imposition.

I think George Lucas has given everyone PTSD about these sort of things by withholding originals in favor of updates.

That's different. The creator of a work does have the right to decide whether and how it should be altered. It's people imposing alterations on other people's work that I have a problem with. The directors of Fury Road and Godzilla Minus One doing B&W versions of their own films is okay because they know what they want their films to look like. If someone else did it without their involvement, though, I'd object to that as much as I object to colorizing "The Daleks" or "The War Games."

 

[JD]

Yeah, but in the era when The War Games came out, color wasn't even an option, so it's not like filming in black & white was a creative choice that the colorized version is going against. I have a feeling that with the vast majority of black & white movies and shows that came out before color would have been filmed in color if they could. Just look how many shows that started out in black & white switched over to color once it was an option.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but in the era when The War Games came out, color wasn't even an option, so it's not like filming in black & white was a creative choice that the colorized version is going against.

All art is created within limitations. If you're writing sonnets, using more than 14 lines isn't an option. If you're writing a prose novel, visual effects aren't an option. The existence of a limitation in format does not erase creative choice from the equation, because the artist makes choices that are appropriate for that format, employs styles that are designed for that format.

Saying "it's not like filming in black & white was a creative choice" is defining the question incorrectly, because that is not the only creative choice. The actual creative choices are the ones made after that format is defined, the choices of how to design and shoot the visuals within the black-and-white format, which are different from the choices that would be made if shooting in color.

I have a feeling that with the vast majority of black & white movies and shows that came out before color would have been filmed in color if they could. Just look how many shows that started out in black & white switched over to color once it was an option.

In many cases, yes, but I'm sure there were traditionalists who built their whole careers mastering the art of B&W filmmaking and saw color as garish and lowbrow. There are always people who resist change from what they know, whether it's people raised with color who resist opening their minds to black-and-white or vice versa.

Besides, the appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy. Whether something has appeal to the masses has little to do with whether it has artistic merit or is worth doing in its own right. Small audiences have as much right to be served as large audiences. Heck, until the past few decades, science fiction like Doctor Who or Star Trek would've been seen as having only niche appeal, meant for a small cult following rather than a mass audience. But that didn't make it any less worthwhile.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The War Games...colorized.

Pass.

 

[Qonundrum]

Apparently the reason for the change was that the prop and special-effects unions kept insisting the console was the other guys' responsibility, which led to production delays, so they just avoided the issue by building the season 14 console with no moving parts. I think that ongoing union dispute was also the reason we never saw the console room in Baker's first season, and only a couple of times in his second. (Since the first Who I saw was Baker's first season, I spent the first five or six weeks wondering if we'd ever see what was inside the blue box.)

Good info, thanks! A shame all the disputes led to such a small and featureless console room.

Good timing to get into the show, LOL. Yeah, season 12 was devoid of TARDIS interior scenes and it did get annoying. Especially when the station reverted from season 16 and back to 12 when I saw 12 for the first time and where's the interior? (I vaguely recall seeing it on one network station, but it was moved to PBS a little while later and PBS re-aired the Tom Baker era incessantly...) Amusingly, seasons 24-26 of the show also avoided the TARDIS interior as those scenes often did take away from the story. By season 26, the interior sets were already being dismantled - hence mostly mid- or close- camera zooms and the rear wall being a patterned drape, with set in low lighting. Allegedly, one console panel was already destroyed, but it wouldn't be surprising.

What I hear you saying is that B&W can be better than poorly done color. I agree. However, as a whole, the world has moved on from B&W and considers color to be the superior choice. I have no doubt that the producers and directors of early DW would've chosen color if it was a reasonable option.

No argument here. If the technology was ubiquitous back then, color would have been used. They took what was available and did much with it.

Compared to today, where so many modern productions resort to palettes that are narrowed down to muted versions of orange, teal, and (either red or purple). Even B&W has more life to it than that. Yes, designers have used chosen palettes for desired effects for decades. It can still be great or sully the experience. 1966's "Star Trek" balances numerous hues across the spectrum in numerous scenes and it balances out extremely well. 1970's "All in the Family" deliberately chose hues between brown and blue deliberately to simulate black and white because the producer's request to use B&W videotape was refused as it was too "old-fashioned" and the producer wanted a feel similar to B&W. Do people want every show to be so florid or so bland? No to both, because both would become blasé.

That all said, I haven't seen the Daleks color version so I can't comment on how well its been done.

I'd seen a lot of clips and a few are in youtube videos. Ignore the plot and characters' description of the forest (which is sand and ashen) and the browns and greens and other hues do look great. The in-city corridor hues truly excel, with surprising levels of differentiation also based on ambient and omnidirectional light sources. It's very well done. The Dalek consoles look more 80s than 60s with "that yellow", but it's not a true complaint as such.

 

[Qonundrum]

The War Games...colorized.

Pass.

Perhaps... "The Daleks" was released to a lot of mixed reviews at the time, and most of the posts gushing about the quality have a point except colourization has been in the "excellent" category for over a decade now, where 60s sitcoms colourized were far better than the late-80s "Gilligan's Island". In that regard, I'm intrigued - even if the stories are being chopped down, to the point that - like very many - I'd rather give it a pass.

I wonder what "The War Games"'s new soundtrack will be. Could easily be better, unless they take influence from Steppenwolf and Jefferson Airplane... Anyone who has seen the whole 10-part epic knows there's a lot of music repetition in the story, with some of those cues even being arguably underwhelming, so a revamped incidental track could be quite welcoming regardless.

Not sure why we see a spinning SIDRAT through space, seems overkill as the planet everyone is fighting on isn't even Earth, and the zone the Doctor states they need to get to, when pointing to the map, is unmarked. Maybe CGI will add a little "YOU ARE HERE" label on it, with dot in bright red of course.

Especially considering "The Daleks", whose editing out of details was mixed (some YouTube reviews go into detail on what scenes were excised - some good, some questionable, some were in a good idea but poorly placed where a flashback moment was clever except it referred to a scene that took place a small handful of minutes prior to it?!) and music inspired too much by the 1965 Dalek film (but was competently arranged and composed, which the original show was not aiming for so why would kludging a different music style be panacea?), then I hope that "The War Games" has a better job all around. With 90 minutes total, with a new regeneration scene cobbled up (along with other new scenes or at least effects shots to pad out some time), and putting in footage that had disappeared since original airing...

 

[matthunter]

I did a quick scan of the thread but I HAVE had a few whiskies, however couldn't see any mention - this is on BBC4 TONIGHT at 9pm.

 

[Qonundrum]

I did a quick scan of the thread but I HAVE had a few whiskies, however couldn't see any mention - this is on BBC4 TONIGHT at 9pm.

UK time zone, I presume? Seems pretty late when the goal is to bring in new kids to see an era they would otherwise not be able to sit through thanks to this show having been made in B&W and stretched out to 10 episodes. May as well go to the museum and hang signs strategically on statues or artwork over some of the good bits while everyone's at it because modern audiences can't handle it, probably.

Still, it's a fun experiment, and even Marcel Duchamp and Francis Picabia would be impressed.... and the funnest part is they never minded the originals remaining intact, too!

 

[Qonundrum]

Looks like YouTube's got some people posting bunches of clips.

Some are genuinely great, great use of color and music feels like it fits in and - generally - isn't intrusive or maudlin, though a couple scenes had me bursting out laughing.

The future incarnations slideshow misses the point and it's interesting that they're only NuWho incarnations.

The regeneration? I want to like it, some moments and elements work great, but other elements not so much. There's a joke at the end that actually worked... some of the CGI, not so much...

The clips shown definitely come across better than what was done for "The Daleks" last year. Am waiting some more reactions but this one might be worth getting when released on blu-ray, but even the improved music - competently scored and fits in much better - does feel a bit forced at times.

With luck, someone will post some of the "footage not seen since originally broadcast".