What was up with the B&B hate back in the 90's & 00's?

[Orac]

You didn't miss much. It wasn't thinly veiled. The veil wasn't even there.

They should've called it Bush Trek that season. Although, in fairness, at least Archer didn't invade Qo'noS after the Xindi attacked. He just blew up a Duras ancestor to show off his new weapons!

Interesting you should call it that as I recall action figures of Captain Archer released during Enterprise's original run bore more resemblance to George Bush Jr. than Scott Bakula but it was probbly just because they had the same haircut and bemused facial expression.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Hate is a strong word, I'm not sure it was hate. But I think there was pushback over creative decisions in Voyager and Enterprise to copy the episodic structure and many plot ideas of TNG as opposed to taking risks and having continuity.

The words "Big red reset button" got thrown around. The way in a show where they were stranded way from Starfleet without being able to get resupply and reinforcements, the result of any episode had no consequences and they didn't even count their dead crewmembers.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I enjoyed Voyager a lot and think the first 2 seasons of Enterprise were much better than the last 2. I actually didn't care for them too much. I guess I'm in the minority here.

I would say the exact opposite. I found seasons 1-2 of Enterprise possibly the worst Star Trek ever made, with the possible exception being Picard season 2. Just a total lack of original ideas and every time they tried to make some sort of political point they did it with the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think fans greatly underappreciate the role UPN played in the "Berman stagnation" / franchise fatigue period. DS9 was overflowing with a stable writing staff, so VGR ended up with all the promising new writers... Bryan Fuller, Michael Taylor... had Braga been given a free hand to go serialized with the Year of Hell, the franchise would've been able to keep up with the new genre developments over in the Buffyverse and Stargate.

One strong criticism that could be leveled against Braga is he just gave up and accepted the structural constraints he was handed, while Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore were able to push back more during DS9 because they didn't have UPN there as an additional gatekeeper.

That said, even with all the constraints at least ENT was boyband free, unlike another more recent entry in the franchise...

At the end of the day, I judge the final product. That comes first, and then I look at what happened behind-the-scenes secondarily.

Today, I know how much of a role UPN had in shaping VOY and ENT and how much they had their thumbs on the scale. But I was talking about what I thought back then. Can't change what I thought in the past!

In retrospect, I think I was way too harsh on B&B back in the Old Days. Looking at it from a distance of 20-25 years, I think it was three things: 1) Feeling like it was time for me to move on from the Berman Era after so many years, which is kind of where I'm starting to be right now with the Kurtzman Era, but that's a whole other topic. 2) Ron Moore made a lot of good points I either already had myself or couldn't argue with. These days, I wouldn't let one person influence my opinion so completely. 3) The Internet. It was easy for me to get caught up in the rhetoric of the time. So, I was all in on the anti-B&B rhetoric. But only up to a point. Once I saw it becoming too extreme, I backed away. Today, I'm far more conscious of what Internet Rhetoric can do than I was before. To the point where my viewpoint is, "I'll think what I think and if people have a problem with that, that's their problem. I'll let the chips fall wherever they may."

Since the Old Days, I've revised my opinions of "Nothing Human", "Thirty Days", and "Latent Image". But I think "The Disease" is still a piece of shit. As far as "The Fight", it's Star Trek Does Rocky. Chakotay's Rocky and Boothby's Mic.

 

[Lord Garth]

I recall action figures of Captain Archer released during Enterprise's original run

Thanks for making me feel old!

 

[Forbin]

I clearly to remember a post from The Old Days™ on this board that made me laugh, and I can't remember who posted it, but I logged on one morning and the first thing I saw was the thread title: "Bring me the head of Brannon Braga!"

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Everyone loves First Contact

Nope. Can’t stand it.

All TNG movies are just different flavours of shit.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Nope. Can’t stand it.

All TNG movies are just different flavours of shit.

Why do you call them shit?

 

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Concerning the whole "Berman-Braga-Bad"-Thing, I have to quote me here on something, I wrote back in the days on SFDebris board. After all, one criticism there and here is "Well, it felt like the same, it was like a TNG-Era-thing, nothing new, nothing that pushed the envelope" (by the way: Why do you push envelopes? Aren't they just there, so you can protect a letter from getting dirty and write your adress and the one of the person, getting the mail, on it? That is a colloquism, I don't get, maybe someone could enlighten me? Would be awesome - anyway, back to BBB).

CaptainCalvinCat on SFDebris Board
Out of those three points, I can only give you the last one, and even on this part, I'm having my problems.
See: Once you've swallowed down the concept, that you just travelled 75.000 lightyears in one instant and need to find a way home - you still fly through space with new aliens, who might be like the ones, you've met before, so it's a day in the office.

"The split crew" might have worked as a concept, but I think, not much people love it, if the characters, whose adventures you're supposed to enjoy, always hate each others guts.

Personally, I think, you don't describe Voyager, but the Destiny of Stargate Universe. Boring new space (check) and split crew (check).
The only thing, that is different on Universe: The ship is not in top-condition every time.
And we see, how boring it is, if the lights are always out, the show is dark (because there is no light) and we can't use the fancy-schmancy stuff on the ship to the fullest, because it would drain power.

Voyager on the other hand: I can't help, I found the stories enjoyable.

Plus - and there is another quote

CaptainCalvinCat on SFDebris Board
German comedian Mike Krüger started his career with the song "Mein Gott, Walter" (My god, Walter) which dealt with a hapless guy named Walter, and every time, something went wrong, someone near to him said "Mein Gott, Walter". Originally, Krüger wanted to be an architect, but he was into comedy and music and so he was singing that song in a little Hamburgian pub called "Dennys Pan". A record company got curious, he sang the song for them, then they put the song on the radio and when Krüger returned from his vacation - that song "Mein Gott, Walter" was a hit.

But his second album didn't sell that well, and he and his girlfriend were invited to the record company and there, he was told "Write another hit like Mein Gott, Walter".

Why am I telling you this little story about a comedian, you probably never heard from?
As difficult, as it is to come up with another Mega hit like "Mein Gott, Walter" for Mr. Krüger, I'm sure the sentence "Just tell good stories" is something, he, me, and all other people, who are creatively inclined say "Hey, good idea, why didn't anyone tell me?!"

Sure, "tell good stories" - how? What are good stories? And if "telling good stories" should be the goal, why do so many people just not... tell good stories, but waste their time with telling mediocre or bad ones?

Might it have something to do, with the fact, that each story might resonate with people on their personal level? Take "The orville" for example: They can tell, deep, meaningful, intelligent stories as much as they want, when they are having jokes about bodily fluids, I'm out.

There are people out there, who like the new trilogy, there are people out there, who like Discovery, Picard, the Orville - hell, there are people out there, who like SpongeBob Squarepants, as hard as that is for me to imagine, or people, who watch "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here." Granted, the latter one is not that much story driven.

But "tell good stories" is something, which makes me tilt my head and ask "What are good stories?" - and "does telling good stories not contain the risk, that someone might've told it before?"

I mean, I watched nearly the complete Star-Trek-catalogue from TOS to PIC, although I let TUS (the ugly series - erm... the one with Boimler and Mariner... Lower Decks) slide, since, at least I am not a fan of the more crass humour, like Mariner cleaning the holodeck and almost vomiting, 'cause some stuff is stinking there. Honestly, that was already enough for me, that I said "I'm not watching that show." That being said: In "Those old scientists" these characters were funny.

Okay, anyway, I watched *nearly* the complete Star-Trek-Catalogue and can say: No, I never caught a really bad episode. Not even the ones, people say, would be bad, have things in it, that make me go "Eh, no, not *that* bad."
And yeah, the Ending of Enterprise was not that good - I already said, what I'd have done differently in the corresponding thread - the Ending of Voyager could've of course used the last episode, where the Crew returns home and everyone has to deal with the aftermath of the situation - basically the story, we got in the first two "Voyager"-Books, that lead up to Project Full Circle.

But nothing was bad enough to warrant a "OMG, these clowns have no clue, what they're doing". Not back in the BB-Days, not now.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Why do you call them shit?

Because I think they are shit.

It shouldn’t be that surprising that someone has an opinion that differs to yours, or indeed that bland ‘all X like Y’ statements are functionally useless.

Fandom is not a monolith. Get over it.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Because I think they are shit.

It shouldn’t be that surprising that someone has an opinion that differs to yours, or indeed that bland ‘all X like Y’ statements are functionally useless.

Fandom is not a monolith. Get over it.

I just asked a simple question. No need to bite my head off.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I just asked a simple question. No need to bite my head off.

You ask a lot of questions in a lot of threads.

As per the board rules, what you engage in is borderline spamming.

Throw another pathetic ‘angry’ emoji at me if you like. I couldn’t give two shits.

 

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Well, I wouldn't concur with Richard S. Tas view, honestly. I mean, sure, the critique for, say, Insurrection was: "It's too much like a long episode of TNG." - to which I say "Yes, and?"

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

You ask a lot of questions in a lot of threads.

As per the board rules, what you engage in is borderline spamming.

Throw another pathetic ‘angry’ emoji at me if you like. I couldn’t give two shits.

#1 Yes, it's called discussion.
#2 Posting a lot of legitimate topics and replies is defined as spamming? How does a message board exist then?
#3 Clearly you do.

Well, I wouldn't concur with Richard S. Tas view, honestly. I mean, sure, the critique for, say, Insurrection was: "It's too much like a long episode of TNG." - to which I say "Yes, and?"

I never got this. The movie has high production values, lots of location shooting, and had F. Murray Abraham as the villain.

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't see Insurrection as an episode of TNG. Too much action for a TNG episode. Picard also would've found a way to fight back while staying inside the lines. He wouldn't have taken off all his pips and gone down to the village. On top of all of that, Riker and Troi wouldn't have rekindled their relationship in an episode. That seemed to be off-limits on the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Because I think they are shit.

It shouldn’t be that surprising that someone has an opinion that differs to yours, or indeed that bland ‘all X like Y’ statements are functionally useless.

Fandom is not a monolith. Get over it.

Damn straight, on all counts. Each TNG film tried way different things with no real connectivity to the last.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Damn straight, on all counts. Each TNG film tried way different things with no real connectivity to the last.

Why did they have to be direct sequels to each other? I quite liked that each film told its own story.

 

[fireproof78]

Why did they have to be direct sequels to each other? I quite liked that each film told its own story.

Who said direct sequels? They just feel unrelated to each other. Data's emotion chip changes every film. The competence of the crew varies and on and on. The only consistent piece is Picard's action abilities.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Who said direct sequels? They just feel unrelated to each other. Data's emotion chip changes every film. The competence of the crew varies and on and on. The only consistent piece is Picard's action abilities.

Well, FC is 2 years later, INS is 2 years later, and then NEM is 4 years later. That's 8 years. TNG + Gen also spans about 8 years. Imagine if TNG was just the 2-hour premiere, "The Best of Both Worlds," "Time's Arrow," and GEN. It would seem just as disjointed, would it not?

Data's emotion chip is consistent from GEN to FC. It's also consistent from INS to NEM. What's not consistent is FC to INS. Basically, Michael Piller and John Logan didn't like emotional Data, so the chip got pulled and put on a shelf so Data could go backwards to TNG Data. I always thought this was stupid. He's finally got emotions in the movie, and then scrapped in the 3rd and 4th films.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, FC is 2 years later, INS is 2 years later, and then NEM is 4 years later. That's 8 years. TNG + Gen also spans about 8 years. Imagine if TNG was just the 2-hour premiere, "The Best of Both Worlds," "Time's Arrow," and GEN. It would seem just as disjointed, would it not?

In TNG there was a sense that they were on assignment.

In the films it felt like they were on a quest with different objectives. It's more disjointed and not because of time.

Data's emotion chip is consistent from GEN to FC. It's also consistent from INS to NEM. What's not consistent is FC to IN

In Generations it couldn't be turned off. Then it could. Then it could be removed again. It's distracting.