I got the impression that Agatha was originally killing witches to get more time with Nicky. When he stopped her from killing is when he died. Then she fully embraced killing witches as a way to get more power and stay alive herself.
Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion and spoilers.
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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It's interesting how willing people are to make excuses for Agatha, to say she only killed out of necessity or suggest that it would've been better if we'd seen her try to give it up. I think her two series so far have been pretty unambiguous about the fact that she's a straight-up villain, that she does evil things because she likes to. Yes, she had a kid that she loved, but she still used that kid as bait to kill witches and twisted that sweet song they made together into something exploitative and destructive. She wasn't a decent person who was driven to do bad, she was just a bad person. Refusing to surrender Billy to Death was probably her first redemptive act ever.
Great interview here https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/ag...hPwZUF6BJ9b-eqXtus_aem_iSDfQ1I3-KTCWU_QjMaLpw
Is there one tag that wasn’t used that you were particularly proud of that you can tell me about?
Yes. I’ll tell you this one, because it’s been a long time, and so maybe the statute of limitations is up on it. Initially, Doctor Strange was going to appear in the tag for “WandaVision.” It’s Wanda sitting on the porch of that cabin, and she’s rocking peacefully. And you know how Strange can do those circles around someone, and make them go somewhere? The circle starts around her, like she’s going to be teleported somewhere, and she stops it, so Strange has to show up in person. I just loved that so much, that Wanda would be like, “No, I’m not going to go where you want to teleport me. You’re going to have to come to my door.” It was a good one, but another tag took its place.
Man. That sounds like it would have been really cool. I guess Marvel didn't want to show Wanda so neutralizing Strange's powers before their movie.
Fantastic interview with a lot of great insights of what they were hinting at, what worked and what didn't, and what they decided not to do (for better or for worse, but mostly for better). I particularly loved the insights about Agatha’s relationship with Nicky and how that connects with Billy (which largely reflects with what have discussed here) as well as here relationships with Death and Jen. I also loved reading about the very deliberate parallels with WandaVision, some of which I picked up on and others that I completely missed.
Speaking of Death, it's curious how some people here have (understandably) been critical by the lack of depicting the beginnings of that relationship and that criticism is directly addressed. Schaeffer said that they decided against showing that development out of fear that doing so would "threatened to tip the boat over" while also showing all of the reveals about Nicky, the Ballad's origins, and the reality of the Road. I think that's a fair assessment and I do hope, just as Schaeffer suggested, that such depiction is ripe material for future projects, along with the search for Tommy and who Nicky's father is.
I also liked learning that there were never real discussions of including either Mephisto or Wanda, and the latter's absence was a deliberate choice. Also ripe material for the future, all of which I hope Schaeffer gets to explore. That said...
It might be just Hollywood talk but I'm not surprised (although disappointed) that Shaeffer hasn't had any conversations with Terry Matalas in regards to the Vision show (there goes that theory of mine). Nor does she know anything about a possible Wanda film, nor about what her next project will be (and whether she'll be doing anything more with the MCU). Again, that might be just obfuscation but I really do hope that Schaeffer will be able to return to this sandbox and explore what was left untouched in and set up by Agatha All Along.
Someone had posted a snippet of WandaVision on Twitter where Tommy (I think) says to his mom "But you can fix the dead, right?" (I suspect this is just after Sparky dies) and after he does Agnes says "You can do that?" and sounds utterly serious. Coincidence or was Jac Schaeffer playing a very long game...
Oh, I also forgot to note: Schaeffer also said she hasn't heard anything about the Vision being the concluding part of a trilogy, so that does appear to be purely fan speculation. Hopefully that's a positive sign for more to come from her in this corner of the MCU.
Yeah, I was a little surprised they never addressed the Salem's Seven in the finale. I'm still not clear if they were ever even real, or just another manifestation of Billy's powers.
I really like the way they ended this. The reveal about BIlly and the Witch's Road was great, I didn't expect it, but once everything came together it made perfect sense.
I wasn't clear on why she thought all of the other witches would want to kill her. Was that just a lie she told Nick to excuse her killing them just for power, or could it be true and there's a something about her that would make every witch want her dead the moment the met her?
The fact that the Road never existed at all and was purely a con by Agatha was another big shock. The truth behind Nicky's death was a lot better than the story that Agatha told back in the beginning. I wonder if we'll ever get an actual MCU version of Mephisto or if he'll continue to just be something hinted at and teased. I kind of would love it if they just kept teasing and hinting at him for the rest of the MCU, and then finally when we get the very last movie in the franchise, the last post credits tag is Mephisto sitting on his throne in hell the same way we saw Thanos in Avengers.
It hadn't even occurred to me that Agath would die, but having it happen and then bringing her back as a ghost mentor for Billy was a perfect to end her story.
It was nice that the show never forgot that she was a villain and only gave her that one redemptive moment when she died. They made her more understandable and sympathetic, but she was still a horrible person who was willing to betray and kill everyone, until she sacrificed herself for Billy at the end.
They were old enemies of Agatha, the children of the coven that sentenced her to death in 1693 for practicing forbidden dark magic, and that she killed instead by draining their powers, as seen in flashback in WandaVision. So no, Billy didn't create them.
Salem Seven
The Salem Seven was a hive-minded coven of witches and the children of the Salemites. In 1693, upon Agatha Harkness execution of the Salemites, she spared the children of the coven. However, over time, these children grew resentful and vengeful, eventually forming the Salem Seven with the goal...
marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com
And Lilia killed them at the end of episode 7, so they weren't in 8-9.
Same answer. She'd already been condemned to death by her coven in the trial, and then she killed them all and escaped, 57 years before Nicky was born. Presumably other witches in general saw her as a condemned murderer and fugitive from justice. That's why she had to give birth alone.
Has he even actually been teased at all, or do comics-savvy viewers just read their own assumptions into it when the MCU uses a story element he was connected with in the comics?
Personally, I have no interest in seeing the character. He's basically just the Devil, and that's boring and trite.
The rumor mill has him appearing in Ironheart, replacing Dormammu as the catalyst for The Hood's powers.
Oh, I missed that specific backstory, I thought they were just vague enemies from her past. And I thought since they were what drove Agath, Billy, and the coven onto the Witch's Road, which was fake, that maybe they were fake too.They were old enemies of Agatha, the children of the coven that sentenced her to death in 1693 for practicing forbidden dark magic, and that she killed instead by draining their powers, as seen in flashback in WandaVision. So no, Billy didn't create them.
Salem Seven
The Salem Seven was a hive-minded coven of witches and the children of the Salemites. In 1693, upon Agatha Harkness execution of the Salemites, she spared the children of the coven. However, over time, these children grew resentful and vengeful, eventually forming the Salem Seven with the goal...
I know that but I thought that since we were getting flashbacks explaining Agatha's backstory, that maybe they'd show up as part of it.
I didn't realize all that happened before Nicky.
In either the first or second episode of Agatha All Along, one of the other witches said that Agatha traded Nicky to Mephisto in order to get the Darkhold.
Now WandaVision was pretty much just all people assuming he'd appear since he was in part of Wanda and her sons' story in the comics.
But he is a big part of the comics, who's played a significant role in some major storylines.
Could still happen. There was talk about more Man-Thing (and Werewolf by Night and Elsa Bloodstone) after that special came out, so who knows. I know they (don't remember who exactly) have said that we would get more specials broadly speaking, so hopefully they'll appear together in that manner.
If the story continues, I'm sure we'll get more. But Agatha Harkness is not a good person--she works for her own interests. When Billy was first revealed I remembered that we are watching a show where the villain is the protagonist. At the end, I don't think Billy forgives her or believes that she is anything but the witch he knows she is. He may have been tricked into trusting her, or maybe he just knows that he needs her to find Tommy and will remain on his guard, but I didn't get any indication that he suddenly forgives her.
Yep, Tarot Cards as some kind of mystical device only dates back a few centuries--and their origins as a con are fairly well documented. The same holds for the Ouija which only goes back to the 1800s--It's late and I'm not going to check this but I believe the Ouija Board as we know it today is actually a Hasbro invention.