Was Sela pointless?

[ananta]

I imagine it made for a lot of fan excitement back when Redemption aired. But ultimately, it’s a weak, underdeveloped fanfic-type premise and sadly Crosby didn’t have the gravitas or screen presence to pull off a villain. Sela was about as menacing as a mildly disgruntled hairdresser (with a terrible haircut). I think the powers that be quickly released the character didn’t work and abandoned it. When I come to Sela in a rewatch it’s a case of, “oh, it’s her” then immediately forgetting her again afterward.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I imagine it made for a lot of fan excitement back when Redemption aired. But ultimately, it’s a weak, underdeveloped fanfic-type premise and sadly Crosby didn’t have the gravitas or screen presence to pull off a villain. Sela was about as menacing as a mildly disgruntled hairdresser (with a terrible haircut). I think the powers that be quickly released the character didn’t work and abandoned it. When I come to Sela in a rewatch it’s a case of, “oh, it’s her” then immediately forgetting her again afterward.

I assumed that she was going to ditch the Romulans to be with Data, and then they'd play the song "Mrs Robinson" over the top of the ending credits.

 

[DonIago]

It's certainly possible that TPTB had (not necessarily unwarranted) concerns about Crosby's acting range, but from the evidence we have, to me it seems more like a failure of imagination on their part.

In her first appearance Sela gives a backstory to Picard that's presented without evidence (even a casual medical scan would have increased her credibility, and if she wants to spook Our Heroes she has no reason not to agree to one), and that seemingly chops any possibility of Tasha returning off at the head (possibly literally), and doesn't really seem to give the character anywhere to go from here besides Recurring Romulan Antagonist.

In her subsequent appearance she is indeed a Recurring Romulan Antagonist who could have been Tomalak or Taibak or the Romulan who tortured Geordi or...anyone. The script does nothing to make the character Sela specifically.

Since she never appears again, any further possibilities for growth never happen.

At least a couple of books in the novelverse gave her a bit more depth, I'm happy to say.

 

[Dukhat]

Nemesis: Ostensibly insane, instead of using Earth as a generic crowd-pleasing plot device as locus of action for the climax, Shinzon's whiplash plot motivation change from going after his Romulan captors to destroy Earth because somehow Picard is responsible for everything the Romulans did, including creating him in the first place... wasn't really believable or compelling.

Actually, it was the Romulan military (of which Donatra was a member) whose original plan was to use Shinzon and the Scimitar to overthrow the government and attack Earth. And while Shinzon knew Donatra and her ilk were using him, he was under no obligation to help them once he got what he wanted (the Praetorship and Picard), which was why the Romulans were so pissed at him because Shinzon was farting around instead of helping them attack Earth. It was only after Shinzon started dying that his plot motivation changed and he helped the Romulans attack Earth even though there was literally nothing in it for him anymore by that time. And then once he decided to help destroy Earth, for some reason the Romulans decide that this isn't a good idea (even though it was theirs to begin with), switch sides and help the Enterprise destroy Shinzon, and then ask for peace talks even though Picard and Riker have no idea that the plot to attack Earth was theirs. Why Shinzon didn't just strap Picard to an operating table and suck his blood as soon as he beamed aboard the Scimitar is a mystery to me. Heck, sending Picard on a wild goose-chase to find android parts on a hostile planet where Picard could have easily been killed is beyond me.

Literally nothing about this movie made any sense.

 

[Qonundrum]

I imagine it made for a lot of fan excitement back when Redemption aired. But ultimately, it’s a weak, underdeveloped fanfic-type premise

Way too true, even more so for "Unification". At least "Redemption" had Sela's reveal, but everything since was a mixed bag.

and sadly Crosby didn’t have the gravitas or screen presence to pull off a villain.

Much less the writing. Sela started out okay, but so quickly became a cartoon. The greatest actor in the universe couldn't save it and I thought Denise was acting her heart out to try to make the material work. Seemed worse than some of season 1's escapades...

Sela was about as menacing as a mildly disgruntled hairdresser (with a terrible haircut).

Bowl cuts are cool...

...if one is under the age of ten.

Even Tomalak had his off days as a character. Sela didn't have anything approaching that level of material for Denise to improve on. The nonsense about a "tachyon net" in "Redemption II" (R2) was way too contrived to swallow, and other subplots (e.g. Data's become captain and now has emotional fits) did not help either and Data could have been any human newly-promoted and it'd be the same stuff presented. I'm trying to remember if Data broke chain of command before, in a way that saved the day, like he did in R2. He more or less did a Paul Rice, finding a new solution to a problem and *bingo* the new solution worked in R2. Data seeing the issue with the Romulan trap and not informing anyone would be no different had it been a human captain who spotted it and deviated in a way to prevent the enemy from getting wind of it.

I think the powers that be quickly released the character didn’t work and abandoned it. When I come to Sela in a rewatch it’s a case of, “oh, it’s her” then immediately forgetting her again afterward.

Definitely abandoned, if nothing else. "Unification" treats both Sela and Yar poorly, arguably out of character for the latter. Assuming her character had better writing than generic cartoon villain, her character would have ended up being caricaturized anyway. Maybe that's it - considering her big reappearance also coincided with bringing back Spock to bring in the old standby of lighter fun stuff...

It's certainly possible that TPTB had (not necessarily unwarranted) concerns about Crosby's acting range, but from the evidence we have, to me it seems more like a failure of imagination on their part.

^^this

In her first appearance Sela gives a backstory to Picard that's presented without evidence (even a casual medical scan would have increased her credibility, and if she wants to spook Our Heroes she has no reason not to agree to one), and that seemingly chops any possibility of Tasha returning off at the head (possibly literally), and doesn't really seem to give the character anywhere to go from here besides Recurring Romulan Antagonist.

^^this. Latter-end season 4, and especially season 5 onward focused more on "the feelings" than "the story".

It's doubly sad, as Tomalak had been around a while as a recurring villain and not underused. Sela could easily have been a replacement.

In her subsequent appearance she is indeed a Recurring Romulan Antagonist who could have been Tomalak or Taibak or the Romulan who tortured Geordi or...anyone. The script does nothing to make the character Sela specifically.

Bingo. Sela was cardboard. Even campy comic relief and in a way that never fit TNG's style.

Since she never appears again, any further possibilities for growth never happen.

Not even in "The Pegasus", but then emphasis would be placed more on her than the actual storyline (Riker's past and illicit technological gambit), so they were right to have a new one-off commander.

She couldn't have been in "Face of the Enemy", where (a) they didn't bring back the commander from "The Enterprise Incident" (a shame, as that was considered), or (b) they bring back Carolyn Seymour but go out of their way to not reuse her previous commander's name as continuity, to make sure nobody remembers the far more engaging story "Contagion"*, because that's season 2 and back then nobody talked about season 2 any more than they had to, because all the fans allegedly hated that season. But failing that, Sela as the commander in FotE could have been something special. Assuming they wouldn't do the camp cartoony villain shtick again.

* which isn't to say FotE is bad, far from it. Roll with the contrivances that put Troi there and how quick she's able to change tune, and the worldbuilding is actually pretty great.

At least a couple of books in the novelverse gave her a bit more depth, I'm happy to say.

Thanks for mentioning that! I am going to look up the novels, if they rescued her character from the onscreen version...

 

[Mojochi]

I'd agree Sela was a pretty weak & poorly utilized character, concocted just to get Crosby back on the show, but what's sadder is that there was unrealized potential there. #1, she seems like a powerful/influential villain, but more likely she was just a patsy for Romulan command, who were throwing her to the wolves, because she had a chip on her shoulder about proving her allegiances.

Think about it. She's got a grudge against Picard's crew, all the way back to singling out Geordi for sabotage, but why is she personally mixed up with this Duras business anyhow? Is it because her own mother (aboard the C) was instrumental in the birthing of a Federation/Klingon alliance? So, in order to prove herself, she twice tries to destroy it?

So then, when she got thwarted, & looked pretty bad, (maybe even suspicious) she cooked up a unification lure for Spock, that had to be the dumbest idea ever, as a last ditch effort to save face, but command was sick of her by then & figured to give her enough rope to hang herself, like they did with Jarok, knowing she was dooming herself.

But the more important issue is #2, her knowing about her origins proves that the Romulans know Picard is a timeline meddler. The whole reason the Romulans are at a disadvantage with the Federation/Klingon alliance is because Picard intervened at Narendra III, even leaving survivors from the future aboard. That's a hugely untapped story.

From their point of view, Starfleet is messing around in time, with the geopolitical shape of the quadrant. Does that just go unchecked? Or do they not actually believe Sela about her mother's (Sarah Connor-esque) origins? It's easily enough proved, given their spies know lots of stuff about Starfleet personnel, (like that Data was in command of the Sutherland)

So why aren't the Romulans taking this temporal threat against them more seriously, the way they do the phasing cloak one? From their perspective, Picard is at the forefront of a temporal offensive against them, but we get nothing more on that.

 

[BillJ]

Nope, she wasn't pointless. Problem was that the writer's really had no idea what to do with her, after the "Redemption" two-parter. Well, that and the fact that Crosby can't act.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

When I was younger I found it a fun novelty, particularly as a fan of Denise Crosby.

But rewatching it now I thought what a wasted opportunity.

Firstly, I do appreciate the foreshadowing in The Mind's Eye. TNG didn't often do arc stuff, so it's nice to see.

But she meets Picard, Picard asks to meet Yar, Sela says she's dead, Picard says oh... and they move on and she could be literally any actor doing any character after that point.

There is zero tension. No upset in the crew. No interactions. No question of whether Sela is lying.

They could have done a mission to check Yar really died, then gone on a bit of a wild goose chase... finding her, not finding her, finding her grave, leaving it ambiguous. But a whole story was there for the taking. Or questions to as if Yar spilled any secrets. Or a flashback to why Yar was escaping - I mean where was she planning to go with a kid? Or did any of the other Enterprise C members survive?

Where's the impact for the crew? There's just no emotional consequence from anyone.

I just feel like it was a good idea, that was not exploited at all beyond the unveiling. And the punchline of "Oh Yar's now died twice."

Sela had exactly one purpose: allow Debise Crosby to return to TNG.
The show had a 7 year run, so let's look at Crosby's role.
S1: Main cast as Natasha Yar
S3: Returned as Natasha Yar in "Yesterday's Enterprise"
S4: Returned in "In Mind's Eye" and in "Redemption" as Sela
S5: Returned in "Redemption II" and "Unification II" as Sela
S7: Returned as Natasha Yar in "All Good Things..."

Sela was dropped after "Unification II," because the producers found the character to absurd, I think.

 

[Lynx]

I must admit that I didn't like the Sela plot.

It was only weird. A daughter to a Tasha Yar from another timeline seeks revenge on Tasha's old friends. Huh?

If they wanted Denise Crosby back, they could have come up with something about Tasha's unknown twin sister instead.

The only good thing with teh redemption episodes is that Gowron was in them. He's one of my top 5 favorites in Star Trek!

 

[DarKush]

If I could go back, I would tie Tasha's "death" to the reemergence of the Romulans in "The Neutral Zone". And years later we find out that she has been captured by the Romulans and brainwashed to use against the Federation as "Sela". Albeit that would ruin the great episode "Yesterday's Enterprise". Though I guess you can still have that episode as is and just keep it as a one-off.

 

[AntonyF]

Nope, she wasn't pointless. Problem was that the writer's really had no idea what to do with her

What to do with something. What are other words for that... purpose... or a point... one might say!

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I must admit that I didn't like the Sela plot.

It was only weird. A daughter to a Tasha Yar from another timeline seeks revenge on Tasha's old friends. Huh?

If they wanted Denise Crosby back, they could have come up with something about Tasha's unknown twin sister instead.

The only good thing with teh redemption episodes is that Gowron was in them. He's one of my top 5 favorites in Star Trek!

Sela wasn't out for revenge. In "In Mind's Eye" and the "Redemption" 2-parter, I believe she was picking sides in the Klingon civil war or something like that. In "Unification II," she was out to take over Vulcan, I think. Been a while since I saw these episodes, but revenge against people she never met was never part of her character.

It wasn't a "they wanted her back" thing. It was a "she wanted to come back" thing, and Sela was all Crosby's idea.

 

[Lynx]

Sela wasn't out for revenge. In "In Mind's Eye" and the "Redemption" 2-parter, I believe she was picking sides in the Klingon civil war or something like that. In "Unification II," she was out to take over Vulcan, I think. Been a while since I saw these episodes, but revenge against people she never met was never part of her character.

It wasn't a "they wanted her back" thing. It was a "she wanted to come back" thing, and Sela was all Crosby's idea.

Not a good idea as I see it.

It also show thatproducers should be a bit careful before killing off a main character because the actor wants to quit.

All of a sudden, the actor/actress chanhes his/her mind and want to come back to the series or the rating for the show goes down after losing a popular character so they give the actor/actress an offer he/she can't refuse.

If the character then has been killed off, then the producers are struck by a severe problem and have to come up with weird or ridiculous solutions to solve it, like that "return of Bobby Ewing in Dallas" which was downright hilarious or something like the Sela plot.

 

[fireproof78]

Sela wasn't out for revenge. In "In Mind's Eye" and the "Redemption" 2-parter, I believe she was picking sides in the Klingon civil war or something like that. In "Unification II," she was out to take over Vulcan, I think. Been a while since I saw these episodes, but revenge against people she never met was never part of her character.

It wasn't a "they wanted her back" thing. It was a "she wanted to come back" thing, and Sela was all Crosby's idea.

Indeed, and there was no revenge drive to her. There was the simple fact that she wanted to see the Romulans succeed, and wield influence and power over the Klingons. She chose the Romulans, pure and simple.

Was glad to see Crosby back, enjoyed the character. Thought the plan was dumb but that was kind of the fun of it. Short sighted and ultimately doomed to failure.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Not a good idea as I see it.

It also show thatproducers should be a bit careful before killing off a main character because the actor wants to quit.

All of a sudden, the actor/actress chanhes his/her mind and want to come back to the series or the rating for the show goes down after losing a popular character so they give the actor/actress an offer he/she can't refuse.

If the character then has been killed off, then the producers are struck by a severe problem and have to come up with weird or ridiculous solutions to solve it, like that "return of Bobby Ewing in Dallas" which was downright hilarious or something like the Sela plot.

You're not wrong, Crosby's character was a bit bonkers. LOL

As for killing off Yar, "at the time," Crosby had made it clear she was leaving and likely not coming back. This is the late 80's where shows didn't really have recurring characters in the same way they do today. They killed off Yar, likely because they didn't think Crosby would come back later on. Oops.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I always felt like the Sela character was poorly handled. It was a way to get Crosby back on the show, and that's about it. There was so much potential there if they wanted to run with this idea, but ultimately it was squandered. Some of the ideas presented in this thread are far better than what we actually got. Not a real complaint on my part, more an observation.

It might have been better to just let Crosby back as another recurring character completely unrelated to Tasha Yar.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I always felt like the Sela character was poorly handled. It was a way to get Crosby back on the show, and that's about it. There was so much potential there if they wanted to run with this idea, but ultimately it was squandered. Some of the ideas presented in this thread are far better than what we actually got. Not a real complaint on my part, more an observation.

It might have been better to just let Crosby back as another recurring character completely unrelated to Tasha Yar.

I think the character could have worked if she were to be the face of Romulus to the Federation, a half-human and half-Romulan for the UFP to deal with, like how Locutus represented the Borg and how Seven represented the Borg (at first) to Voyager. To avoid confusion, have characters occasionally discuss how she's effectively the daughter of Tasha from another timeline averted because time travel. That's really all the explanation needed, just bring it up sometimes, so the audience is like, "Oh, yeah, forgot about that."

 

[Jedi Marso]

I think the character could have worked if she were to be the face of Romulus to the Federation, a half-human and half-Romulan for the UFP to deal with, like how Locutus represented the Borg and how Seven represented the Borg (at first) to Voyager. To avoid confusion, have characters occasionally discuss how she's effectively the daughter of Tasha from another timeline averted because time travel. That's really all the explanation needed, just bring it up sometimes, so the audience is like, "Oh, yeah, forgot about that."

Realistically, though, the other characters had no idea she was a child of Tasha's from another timeline. Other than Picard, and maybe Guinan. I guess they could have talked about it, but to most other people it would seem like pure fiction, and of course something they had no memory of.

And I don't think the Romulans would have felt the need for a half-human 'face' for relations with the UFP. I think they were far too prideful and societally rigid for that.

I do like the idea that the crew might get some notion that Tasha (or a version of her) was alive somewhere in the Romulan Empire, and gone looking for her.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Realistically, though, the other characters had no idea she was a child of Tasha's from another timeline. Other than Picard, and maybe Guinan. I guess they could have talked about it, but to most other people it would seem like pure fiction, and of course something they had no memory of.

And I don't think the Romulans would have felt the need for a half-human 'face' for relations with the UFP. I think they were far too prideful and societally rigid for that.

I do like the idea that the crew might get some notion that Tasha (or a version of her) was alive somewhere in the Romulan Empire, and gone looking for her.

If they really wanted to do a dark episode or a dark two-parter, due a sequel to "Yesterday's Enterprise." Sela's father lied. Tasha is alive and now an old woman. The survivors of the Ent-C are alive and they have escaped... on the trashed Enterprise-C that the Romulans kept as a trophy. I dunno how this could work as a story, but there you go.

 

[Phoenix219]

I'd agree Sela was a pretty weak & poorly utilized character, concocted just to get Crosby back on the show, but what's sadder is that there was unrealized potential there. #1, she seems like a powerful/influential villain, but more likely she was just a patsy for Romulan command, who were throwing her to the wolves, because she had a chip on her shoulder about proving her allegiances.

Think about it. She's got a grudge against Picard's crew, all the way back to singling out Geordi for sabotage, but why is she personally mixed up with this Duras business anyhow? Is it because her own mother (aboard the C) was instrumental in the birthing of a Federation/Klingon alliance? So, in order to prove herself, she twice tries to destroy it?

So then, when she got thwarted, & looked pretty bad, (maybe even suspicious) she cooked up a unification lure for Spock, that had to be the dumbest idea ever, as a last ditch effort to save face, but command was sick of her by then & figured to give her enough rope to hang herself, like they did with Jarok, knowing she was dooming herself.

But the more important issue is #2, her knowing about her origins proves that the Romulans know Picard is a timeline meddler. The whole reason the Romulans are at a disadvantage with the Federation/Klingon alliance is because Picard intervened at Narendra III, even leaving survivors from the future aboard. That's a hugely untapped story.

From their point of view, Starfleet is messing around in time, with the geopolitical shape of the quadrant. Does that just go unchecked? Or do they not actually believe Sela about her mother's (Sarah Connor-esque) origins? It's easily enough proved, given their spies know lots of stuff about Starfleet personnel, (like that Data was in command of the Sutherland)

So why aren't the Romulans taking this temporal threat against them more seriously, the way they do the phasing cloak one? From their perspective, Picard is at the forefront of a temporal offensive against them, but we get nothing more on that.

to be honest, that might explain how the Romulans ended up back in the 21st century trying to mess with the timeline.