S1 vs. S2 vs. S3 (comparing seasons)

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Yes, it's nothing new. There's no recent trend of Hollywood milking their IP's to death. It's been that was since at least the 80's and the rise in sequels. Off the top of my head I can name franchise like Jaws, Superman, Batman, Jurassic Park, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday The 13th, Alien, Beverly Hills Cop, Lethal Weapon, Robocop, Police Academy, Rocky, etc. All franchise that started off well, but before the millennium even hit, had been reduced to shadows of their former selves.

And stop calling Peter Pan a film franchise. Every film has been a stand alone adaptation in someway or another of the play by J.M. Berrie.

#1 Yeah it is.

#2 Milking an IP to death has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about. Are you just replying without reading my post?

#3 I'm talking about a trend of multiple franchises being run into the ground all at the same time in a short span of years. This wasn't happening in the 80s's.

#4 Peter Pan is a franchise. There's the play, the book, Hook, the 2003 film, the 2011 two-part prequel, the 2015 prequel, the 2023 Disney film, the two animated Disney films, the Tinkerbell animated films, the FOX cartoon from the 80's or 90's, and more. It's a franchise.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Do people really do that sort of thing in this day and age? I'd love to have that sort of disposable income. If I've paid for my seat I'm staying until the bitter end.

Maybe it's because I'm a bit older, but I feel like Star Wars fans have never not been split. I can remember the incessant prequel trilogy/original trilogy Wars. Ironically, when Disney took over, a lot of prequel haters suddenly appreciated them. Crazy times.

I won't even walk out on a video rental back when Blockbuster was still a think. If I've spent money, I'm there until the end too. Streaming is different, because it's like bailing on a broadcast/cable/satellite movie.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

It's hard to properly assess how united a fanbase was in the past, as we can't even be sure how united they are right now. But I know for certain that the disappointing sequel is not a recent invention.

Terminator 3 got bad reviews in 2003 and Terminator Salvation pretty much bombed in 2009.
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was divisive in 1984 while Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was outright mocked in 2008.
Alien lost its shine with the depressing third film in 1992 and the ridiculed Alien: Resurrection in 1997 but received some acclaim for the new one this year.
The DCEU was all over the place in quality and success, but it was never as bad as Superman 3 (1983), Superman 4 (1987), Batman and Robin (1997) or Catwoman (2004).
Star Wars gained a lot of Ewok Haters with Return of the Jedi in 1983 and 1999's Phantom Menace killed a lot of the hype, leading to a 38% drop off in ticket sales for Attack of the Clones in 2002. On the other hand, Force Awakens, Rogue One and Last Jedi were all big hits for Disney.

And Star Trek fans will tell you that the franchise really started to fall apart with Star Trek: Voyager in 1995, or Insurrection in 1998, and so on. Nemesis bombed in 2002 and Enterprise got outright cancelled in 2005, so if fans were united in the early 2000s, it was due to a shared disinterest in what Trek had become.

On the other hand, it's also pretty certain that we're seeing a rise in angry YouTubers and a lot of box office bombs. MCU movies have been slipping in quality from "unbelieveably consistent" to "hit and miss like DC" and Marvel's been punished for it. Audiences are tired of seeing nothing but franchise films and VFX teams are clearly getting tired too, meanwhile movie budgets have risen to the point it's no wonder studios aren't raking in cash anymore.

But I think that the problem isn't that films are bad these days, there have always been more bad films than good ones. The problem is that when everything's tied to franchises, you feel the bad ones more. If Jupiter Ascending, John Carter or Rebel Moon bombs then it's a shame, but no one's too bothered. Last Jedi got half the fanbase absolutely furious though, despite mostly getting 7/10s from IMDb users! Audiences giving a damn is a double-edged sword.

Are you in denial of what's going on with the industry over the last 10 years, or have you honestly not been paying attention? I am not talking about the 80's, 90's, 00's, nor early 10's. I'm not talking about poorly received sequels. I'm specifically talking about 2015 to now. I am specifically talking about shitty people in studio executive positions who are crashing multiple franchises in a short window of time.

 

[HotRod]

Yeah it is.

It really isn't.

Milking an IP to death has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about. Are you just replying without reading my post?

You said that Hollywood is destroying the legacy of their films. This is nothing new, not that they're actually being des, mind you. Run into the ground, perhaps? But nothing is destroyed.

This wasn't happening in the 80s's.

You clearly weren't playing attention.

Peter Pan is a franchise.

Nope.


And for God sakes, man. Use multi-quote!

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

You said that Hollywood is destroying the legacy of their films. This is nothing new, not that they're actually being des, mind you. Run into the ground, perhaps? But nothing is destroyed.

You clearly weren't playing attention.

Nope.

And for God sakes, man. Use multi-quote!

#1 No, I did not say "Hollywood is destroying the legacy of their films." That's not what I'm arguing at all. My argument is that starting mid-2010's through now, studios across the board are ruining their franchises. This mostly stems from hiring the wrong people to oversee franchises, but this also includes things like studio politics, DEI, forcing THE MESSAGE into movies/series, along with strong women (which I'm for) with zero character arcs, because they start at the beginning where they should be arriving by the climax. I'm talking about a specific time period of the industry.

#2 In the 1980's, studios mostly just backed off and just let the directors make their movies. If the movie failed, this was generally the fault of the director, not the studio.

#3 Yes, Peter Pan is a franchise, and to say otherwise is sad denail.

#4 I have tried multi-quote, it doesn't work.

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

While this topic is so very interesting, I must wonder what it has to do with ranking Picard seasons. Could you go to our dedicated film boards to argue this?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

While this topic is so very interesting, I must wonder what it has to do with ranking Picard seasons. Could you go to our dedicated film boards to argue this?

Fair enough. How does PIC's 3 seasons rank with you? Do you agree that Picard as a series feels like a collection of 3 10-part miniseries?

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

Oh, very much so. Season 1 is by far the best, then 2 and 3 flip around in my mind for which is worse. 2 is nonsensical, but 3 is so boilerplate and cynically written, and people lap it up. If only 2 had more Confederation and less faffing about in 2024 (which, living here now, does not have manned missions to Europa.)

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Oh, very much so. Season 1 is by far the best, then 2 and 3 flip around in my mind for which is worse. 2 is nonsensical, but 3 is so boilerplate and cynically written, and people lap it up. If only 2 had more Confederation and less faffing about in 2024 (which, living here now, does not have manned missions to Europa.)

I like to call S2 CSI: Picard. Interestingly, the Borg Queen likely had more screen time in S2 than in First Contact and her 3 Voyager appearances combined. What do you think? Why do you feel S3 is cynically written? Yes, I too would have liked to see more of the Confederation and less CSI: Picard. Yes, the Europa mission didn't happen in real life, but doesn't that rule apply to all fiction?

 

[fireproof78]

Fans of the originals, fans of the prequels, fans of the extended universe, it was just one big fanbase. Then Disney Wars happened and the fanbase shattered like a glass grenade.

Hahaha...sorry but Star Wars fans never struck me as united.

Maybe it's because I'm a bit older, but I feel like Star Wars fans have never not been split. I can remember the incessant prequel trilogy/original trilogy Wars. Ironically, when Disney took over, a lot of prequel haters suddenly appreciated them. Crazy times.

Yeah. I did the whole fan club thing and the debates and disgust were regular. Anger at Ewoks, how bad ROTJ was, or TPM bashing. You learned quickly that liking certain things was not always acceptable.

Oh, very much so. Season 1 is by far the best, then 2 and 3 flip around in my mind for which is worse. 2 is nonsensical, but 3 is so boilerplate and cynically written, and people lap it up. If only 2 had more Confederation and less faffing about in 2024 (which, living here now, does not have manned missions to Europa.)

Indeed. Season 1 is my favorite, and has an interesting interweaving of Trek history and moving forward in the timeline. 3 relied upon similar tropes to 1 but moved characters in ways that felt too thin to be as satisfying as 1.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Hahaha...sorry but Star Wars fans never struck me as united.

Yeah. I did the whole fan club thing and the debates and disgust were regular. Anger at Ewoks, how bad ROTJ was, or TPM bashing. You learned quickly that liking certain things was not always acceptable.


Indeed. Season 1 is my favorite, and has an interesting interweaving of Trek history and moving forward in the timeline. 3 relied upon similar tropes to 1 but moved characters in ways that felt too thin to be as satisfying as 1.

Are you arguing that Disney Wars (everything after Revenge of the Sith) is on par with Lucas Wars (original & prequel trilogies) regarding quality?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Announcing the Panverse

I was thinking the PPCU.

ETA:

Peter Pan (franchise) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fireproof78]

Are you arguing that Disney Wars (everything after Revenge of the Sith) is on par with Lucas Wars (original & prequel trilogies) regarding quality?

I'm arguing the variety of quality has existed since Star Wars. That for every Empire you have the Ewoks movies or Clone Wars movie.

To me it's not this new trend. It's one I've seen since participating in fan groups.

 

[HotRod]

Are you arguing that Disney Wars (everything after Revenge of the Sith) is on par with Lucas Wars (original & prequel trilogies) regarding quality?

I will.

The Force Awakens, while somewhat unoriginal, was better made and better written than anything in the prequel trilogy, while The Mandalorian is a consistently entertaining show. Rogue One was also easily the best Star Wars film since the 80s, and Andor was a masterpiece of streaming television. The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker were both heavily flawed films but still contain interesting and entertaining elements. Solo suffered from blowback from The Last Jedi, but was still a decent enough film. Book of Boba Fett was a mixed bag, but it was still enjoyable enough. The same can be said of both Obi-Wan and The Acolyte.

So yes, Star Wars under Disney is on par and at times better than Disney under Lucas. In cases like Andor, it's not even close.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I'm arguing the variety of quality has existed since Star Wars. That for every Empire you have the Ewoks movies or Clone Wars movie.

To me it's not this new trend. It's one I've seen since participating in fan groups.

I'm arguing the state of the film industry as of the 2010's and 2020's.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I will.

The Force Awakens, while somewhat unoriginal, was better made and better written than anything in the prequel trilogy, while The Mandalorian is a consistently entertaining show. Rogue One was also easily the best Star Wars film since the 80s, and Andor was a masterpiece of streaming television. The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker were both heavily flawed films but still contain interesting and entertaining elements. Solo suffered from blowback from The Last Jedi, but was still a decent enough film. Book of Boba Fett was a mixed bag, but it was still enjoyable enough. The same can be said of both Obi-Wan and The Acolyte.

So yes, Star Wars under Disney is on par and at times better than Disney under Lucas. In cases like Andor, it's not even close.

The Force Awakens was dogshit. It was just a remake of the original film disguised as Part 7. It did nothing new and killed off my interest in seeing anything else from Disney. All of the commercials I see, it's all just more of the same. Granted, this is just my personal opinion. If you're able to have fun with Disney Wars, I'm happy for you.

 

[fireproof78]

The Force Awakens was dogshit. It was just a remake of the original film disguised as Part 7. It did nothing new and killed off my interest in seeing anything else from Disney. All of the commercials I see, it's all just more of the same. Granted, this is just my personal opinion. If you're able to have fun with Disney Wars, I'm happy for you.

More fun than the awful prequels. Hilarious now to see people hold that trilogy up as some golden standard when many fans were calling for Lucas to sell to Disney at the time.

 

[HotRod]

The Force Awakens was dogshit. It was just a remake of the original film disguised as Part 7. It did nothing new and killed off my interest in seeing anything else from Disney. All of the commercials I see, it's all just more of the same. Granted, this is just my personal opinion. If you're able to have fun with Disney Wars, I'm happy for you.

Like I said, it wasn't the most original. But you know what it was? A fun, well made film that had actors on actual sets and locations. There was more artistry in The Force Awakens than there was in the entirety on the prequel trilogy.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

More fun than the awful prequels. Hilarious now to see people hold that trilogy up as some golden standard when many fans were calling for Lucas to sell to Disney at the time.

The prequels are better than anything Disney's put out.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Like I said, it wasn't the most original. But you know what it was? A fun, well made film that had actors on actual sets and locations. There was more artistry in The Force Awakens than there was in the entirety on the prequel trilogy.

Maybe, but it's still a remake.