StarTrek1701 didn't say it was. He's pointing out a trend.
S1 vs. S2 vs. S3 (comparing seasons)
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It's been that way for the last 25+ years. It's very common in literature to see older heroes fail as they age. Beowulf, D'Ataganan, Arthur, in classic literature. Various iterations of sequel undoing happy endings in a fantasy tale. I saw it in video games heavily in the 2000s.
Happily ever after doesn't apply to sequels. That's what I mean that this isn't a modern invention or trend. Seen it too much to think it's just modern Hollywood.
No, it hasn't. Everything went bonkers with the industry around 2015-2020 and then really went downhill in the 2020's. Most fans will argue that Disney's ruined Star Wars, Indiana Jones, the MCU, and are asking what's next? A lot of Trekkies argue the newer streaming shows are too dark, run by people who didn't work on the older shows and are just there for the paycheck. A lot of fans of the broadcast era shoes prefer the fun and optimism of The Orville over the new Trek shows. The DCEU crashed and burned. That's 5 franchises. Disney's new Peter Pan film is atrocious. Now we're at 6 franchises. Terminator: Dark Fate, now we're at 7 franchises. All of this has been in the last 10 years, and the number increases. Granted, it depends on who you ask, but there you go.
StarTrek1701's reference to Hollywood destroying modern franchises is in reference to badly produced films and series, not sad stories.
Do not agree. It's not destroyed
I listed 7 franchises, which "it" is not destroyed?
Destruction never makes sense to me.
If it still exits it continues. Arthur lives, D'Ataganan doesn't due by cannonball, etc.
I'd love to see some solid statistics to back up this statement.
Destruction of quality, not as in no more product.
I struggle to see the destruction. I mean, even in Trek we had episodes vary in quality. I see complaints about TOS season 3, or TNG Season 2 or 7, etc.
Destruction is just not what I see because there's no finality to it. One episode can be great and the next awful. But, to me, that's true of every single show I've ever watched.
Hell, I'll take my favorite film franchise of all time in the Star Wars Original Trilogy: for me it's a decrease in enjoyment from 4 to 5 to 6. So I struggle with "destruction" as even a trend because that's just my experience; ups and downs.
DCEU: The audience couldn't didn't like the dark MOS and BVS, so the franchise shifted more lighthearted and episodic except for Zach Snyder's JL. Ultimately, James Gunn got the reigns and cancelled the DCEU to reboot it as the DCU. One down.
Indiana Jones: It was fine as a trilogy. The fourth film was a nice "one last hurrah" and a nice send off. The fifth one: just why?
MCU: I keep seeing endless vids on YouTube saying the MCU is trash after Endgame with a few exceptions.
Peter Pan: Endless YouTube vids of people loving the 2003 film and trashing Disney's 2023 film.
Star Trek: The fanbase was mostly united up until 2005. The reboot trilogy came and went. Prime Trek came back, starting with Discovery. The audience has split into those who like one or more of the new shows and those who hate everything Kurtzman Trek.
Star Wars: The fanbase was mostly united until Disney bought LucasFilm and got hold of Star Wars. Once Disney Wars began, the fanbase shattered.
Terminator: People were following the franchise up until Dark Fate, leading many to walk out after the opening scene. The movie crashed and burned. There may not be a 7th film, and if there is, the only option may be a hard reboot.
I'm talking about the streaming era of Star Trek as in Discovery, the shorts, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Strange New Worlds. There are a lot of fans who believe the Kurtzman-era of Star Trek (the new streaming shows) is "bad" Star Trek.
Regarding Star Wars, a lot of those fans argue that the bulk of Disney Wars is mostly bad Star Wars with a few exceptions such as Rogue One and Andor.
Word of advice: basing your claims on "YouTube vids" isn't helping your cause. Anecdotal evidence is not a solid statistic.
Nevermind that some of the statements are just patently false. People were following Terminator up to Dark Fate? You're kidding, right? People have been pitching fits about that franchise since T3.
And claiming that Star Wars fans were mostly united up to the point Disney took over? Are you so young that you don't remember the early 2000's?
Same can be said about Trek. The fanbase has never been united. There were people calling for Berman and Braga's heads back then, just as some idiots are for Kurtzman these days.
Admittedly, Marvel has had some turbulence, but considering the amount of money Deadpool just made, I think they'll be fine.
What you're talking about is nothing new. This trend you speak of is nonsense.
One just needs to see the box office returns of certain franchises to see where we are at right now.
Deadpool & Wolverine made bank cuz it was what the fans were hungry for, Eternals crashed and burned cuz it wasn't.
Perfect Post! You said things way better than I could.
#1 You argue against a claim I did not make. I never said my claims were based exclusively off YouTube vids. Go back and read what I said and how I said it along with the greater context of the overall post.
#2 Statistics are not needed when things are brick to the face obvious.
#3 People showed up for T3, Salvation, and Genisys. Barely anyone showed up for Dark Fate.
#4 Fans of the originals, fans of the prequels, fans of the extended universe, it was just one big fanbase. Then Disney Wars happened and the fanbase shattered like a glass grenade.
#5 The fanbase has been united in that people were still fans of Star Trek there might have been a show or two fans hated on, but it was mostly one continuous production team from 1987-2005. A lot of these people also worked on the first four movies prior to TNG, some even having worked on TOS. A big part of the disconnect with Kurtzman Trek is aside from some legacy actors, it's an entirely new production team, and a lot of Trekkies just reject Kurtzman Trek as a whole.
#6 You understand Deadpool and Wolverine is more of an exception, yes? Most of the post-Endgame MCU films and series are trash talked all over YouTube and in online reviews.
#7 Nothing new? I'm describing a trend that's across the board as of late 2010's rolling into the 2020's. Compare 2003's Peter Pan to the 2023 film if you need a simple example.
It's hard to properly assess how united a fanbase was in the past, as we can't even be sure how united they are right now. But I know for certain that the disappointing sequel is not a recent invention.
Terminator 3 got bad reviews in 2003 and Terminator Salvation pretty much bombed in 2009.
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was divisive in 1984 while Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was outright mocked in 2008.
Alien lost its shine with the depressing third film in 1992 and the ridiculed Alien: Resurrection in 1997 but received some acclaim for the new one this year.
The DCEU was all over the place in quality and success, but it was never as bad as Superman 3 (1983), Superman 4 (1987), Batman and Robin (1997) or Catwoman (2004).
Star Wars gained a lot of Ewok Haters with Return of the Jedi in 1983 and 1999's Phantom Menace killed a lot of the hype, leading to a 38% drop off in ticket sales for Attack of the Clones in 2002. On the other hand, Force Awakens, Rogue One and Last Jedi were all big hits for Disney.
And Star Trek fans will tell you that the franchise really started to fall apart with Star Trek: Voyager in 1995, or Insurrection in 1998, and so on. Nemesis bombed in 2002 and Enterprise got outright cancelled in 2005, so if fans were united in the early 2000s, it was due to a shared disinterest in what Trek had become.
On the other hand, it's also pretty certain that we're seeing a rise in angry YouTubers and a lot of box office bombs. MCU movies have been slipping in quality from "unbelieveably consistent" to "hit and miss like DC" and Marvel's been punished for it. Audiences are tired of seeing nothing but franchise films and VFX teams are clearly getting tired too, meanwhile movie budgets have risen to the point it's no wonder studios aren't raking in cash anymore.
But I think that the problem isn't that films are bad these days, there have always been more bad films than good ones. The problem is that when everything's tied to franchises, you feel the bad ones more. If Jupiter Ascending, John Carter or Rebel Moon bombs then it's a shame, but no one's too bothered. Last Jedi got half the fanbase absolutely furious though, despite mostly getting 7/10s from IMDb users! Audiences giving a damn is a double-edged sword.
Terminator 3 got bad reviews in 2003 and Terminator Salvation pretty much bombed in 2009.
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was divisive in 1984 while Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was outright mocked in 2008.
Alien lost its shine with the depressing third film in 1992 and the ridiculed Alien: Resurrection in 1997 but received some acclaim for the new one this year.
The DCEU was all over the place in quality and success, but it was never as bad as Superman 3 (1983), Superman 4 (1987), Batman and Robin (1997) or Catwoman (2004).
Star Wars gained a lot of Ewok Haters with Return of the Jedi in 1983 and 1999's Phantom Menace killed a lot of the hype, leading to a 38% drop off in ticket sales for Attack of the Clones in 2002. On the other hand, Force Awakens, Rogue One and Last Jedi were all big hits for Disney.
And Star Trek fans will tell you that the franchise really started to fall apart with Star Trek: Voyager in 1995, or Insurrection in 1998, and so on. Nemesis bombed in 2002 and Enterprise got outright cancelled in 2005, so if fans were united in the early 2000s, it was due to a shared disinterest in what Trek had become.
On the other hand, it's also pretty certain that we're seeing a rise in angry YouTubers and a lot of box office bombs. MCU movies have been slipping in quality from "unbelieveably consistent" to "hit and miss like DC" and Marvel's been punished for it. Audiences are tired of seeing nothing but franchise films and VFX teams are clearly getting tired too, meanwhile movie budgets have risen to the point it's no wonder studios aren't raking in cash anymore.
But I think that the problem isn't that films are bad these days, there have always been more bad films than good ones. The problem is that when everything's tied to franchises, you feel the bad ones more. If Jupiter Ascending, John Carter or Rebel Moon bombs then it's a shame, but no one's too bothered. Last Jedi got half the fanbase absolutely furious though, despite mostly getting 7/10s from IMDb users! Audiences giving a damn is a double-edged sword.
Do people really do that sort of thing in this day and age? I'd love to have that sort of disposable income. If I've paid for my seat I'm staying until the bitter end.
Maybe it's because I'm a bit older, but I feel like Star Wars fans have never not been split. I can remember the incessant prequel trilogy/original trilogy Wars. Ironically, when Disney took over, a lot of prequel haters suddenly appreciated them. Crazy times.
In all my years around here, this is the first time I've ever seen Peter Pan listed as a franchise...
Yes, it's nothing new. There's no recent trend of Hollywood milking their IP's to death. It's been that was since at least the 80's and the rise in sequels. Off the top of my head I can name franchise like Jaws, Superman, Batman, Jurassic Park, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday The 13th, Alien, Beverly Hills Cop, Lethal Weapon, Robocop, Police Academy, Rocky, etc. All franchise that started off well, but before the millennium even hit, had been reduced to shadows of their former selves.
And stop calling Peter Pan a film franchise. Every film has been a stand alone adaptation in someway or another of the play by J.M. Berrie.
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