What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[B.J.]

Speaking of kitbashes, I would have loved to see more variants of the existing classes all mixed together in the fleet battles. For example, the Miranda has the Lantree and Saratoga variants (and arguably the Soyuz class fits as a variant as well), but we really only saw the standard version (save for some questionable impulse engine placement). Same for Excelsior, the 1701-B variant was only seen again as the Lakota. The FC ships didn't seem to have any variants that I'm aware of.

 

[Tomalak]

We did see the 'Antares' variant at SB 375.

USS Antares (NCC-9844)

The USS Antares (NCC-9844) was a modified 24th century Federation Miranda-class starship operated by Starfleet. In 2374, the USS Antares, and at least three of her sister ships, visited Starbase 375. (DS9: "Favor the Bold") The USS Antares and its sister ships were one of the many alternative...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[B.J.]

We did see the 'Antares' variant at SB 375.

USS Antares (NCC-9844)

The USS Antares (NCC-9844) was a modified 24th century Federation Miranda-class starship operated by Starfleet. In 2374, the USS Antares, and at least three of her sister ships, visited Starbase 375. (DS9: "Favor the Bold") The USS Antares and its sister ships were one of the many alternative...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Barely! Would have been nice to see it elsewhere.

 

[Dukhat]

Speaking of kitbashes, I would have loved to see more variants of the existing classes all mixed together in the fleet battles. For example, the Miranda has the Lantree and Saratoga variants (and arguably the Soyuz class fits as a variant as well), but we really only saw the standard version (save for some questionable impulse engine placement). Same for Excelsior, the 1701-B variant was only seen again as the Lakota. The FC ships didn't seem to have any variants that I'm aware of.

The reason why we didn’t see any variants of those classes was because they scanned Greg Jein’s “Flashback” Excelsior and the original Reliant model (which had been restored to its original configuration for Star Trek Generations) into CGI models. They could have played around with the meshes and created their own variants/separate classes, but they had neither the time nor the inclination to do so.

 

[Macintosh]

There's no reason to think that the Dominion War Excelsiors weren't upgraded to Lakota specs.

And no reason to think they were either – remember, O'Brien was surprised by the Lakota's firepower, and every other Excelsior we see in the Dominion War is the original configuration, lacking the Lakota's extra impulse engines, secondary hull fairings, and modified nacelles.

At the very least we can infer that their shields were upgraded to resist Dominion weaponry, or the war would have lasted days.

Yeah, they're... quite something.

 

[Dukhat]

And no reason to think they were either – remember, O'Brien was surprised by the Lakota's firepower, and every other Excelsior we see in the Dominion War is the original configuration, lacking the Lakota's extra impulse engines, secondary hull fairings, and modified nacelles.



Yeah, they're... quite something.

Wow. Watching that clip reminds me of how badly DS9 needs the HD treatment and updated VFX.

 

[Arpy]

I love kitbashes.

Kitbashes are possible because of the original work of other artists. If you want more of the former you need more of the latter.

Both the ones made for the screen and the various fan designs out there (especially @Forbin ‘s, which I always thought Paramount should have contacted to ask to use his models for far background ships).

Here are my favorite Forbin kitbashes from the Jackill kitbash thread I started linked above.

I myself enjoy kitbashing. I made a USS Tolstoy kitbash based on an unused design by Ed Miarecki, and I’m currently working on an original design also based on an unused design, for the Andromeda class USS Liberator NCC-67016 from BoBW.

Please share them when finished. I always enjoy a creative “new” design. My head canon includes scores of kitbashes along with scores or original designs for a fleet in any given era.

 

[Ithekro]

There were a number of Galaxy-class starships out there. I image they might have been formed into "wings" of three starships. With Sisko's orders of 9.1 and 9.3 being for two starships and their task forces to engage specific targets.

 

[Arpy]

Looks like Jackill took down his website since 2016 when I started the appreciation thread, and all the links to it therein no longer work. All the ships are easily google-able but I wonder if I should take the time and find new ones for them. They’re all great ships for different reasons.

We did see the 'Antares' variant at SB 375.

USS Antares (NCC-9844)

The USS Antares (NCC-9844) was a modified 24th century Federation Miranda-class starship operated by Starfleet. In 2374, the USS Antares, and at least three of her sister ships, visited Starbase 375. (DS9: "Favor the Bold") The USS Antares and its sister ships were one of the many alternative...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

That’s a really fuzzy shot from the series; do we know those ships aren’t just normal Mirandas? It seems funny that they would spend money on another Miranda variant instead of scanning others ships—like the Ambassador, Nova, or even the Olympic—especially for so far in the background.

And no reason to think they were either – remember, O'Brien was surprised by the Lakota's firepower,

I took that as he was surprised that its weapons matched the super duper testbed Defiant’s, not that they’d been upgraded at all since its initial launch nearly a century earlier. Just stretches credulity, you know?

and every other Excelsior we see in the Dominion War is the original configuration, lacking the Lakota's extra impulse engines, secondary hull fairings, and modified nacelles.

The Mirandas are untouched as well and even older than the Excelsiors. Same with the Klingon Birds of Prey that we’re told in GEN include multiple identical versions with different internal workings.

There were a number of Galaxy-class starships out there. I image they might have been formed into "wings" of three starships. With Sisko's orders of 9.1 and 9.3 being for two starships and their task forces to engage specific targets.

Makes as much sense of Sisko’s lines as I’ve ever heard. Thanks.

 

[Tomalak]

That’s a really fuzzy shot from the series; do we know those ships aren’t just normal Mirandas? It seems funny that they would spend money on another Miranda variant instead of scanning others ships—like the Ambassador, Nova, or even the Olympic—especially for so far in the background.

This scene was a practical effect using models, as was the rag-tag remnants of the fleet seen in the opening of A Time To Stand. This was the period from where the infamous 'Frankenfleet' kit-bashes originate.

DS9 didn't switch over fully to CGI until later in the season - the fleet battle in Sacrifice of Angels.

I took that as he was surprised that its weapons matched the super duper testbed Defiant’s, not that they’d been upgraded at all since its initial launch nearly a century earlier. Just stretches credulity, you know?

Yes, the intent is that she had stronger weapons than the average TNG-era Excelsior-class ship that O'Brien expected.

My argument is that there's no reason to think that these obviously successful modifications weren't extended to the rest of the Excelsior fleet. The war didn't kick off for another 18 months.

The Mirandas are untouched as well and even older than the Excelsiors. Same with the Klingon Birds of Prey that we’re told in GEN include multiple identical versions with different internal workings.

Yeah, visually untouched doesn't mean they weren't internally upgraded. Especially with the Klingon ships, given the longevity of their birds of prey and D7/K'T'Inga designs.

Sacrifice of Angels shows the Defiant and two BoPs destroying a large Jem'Hadar battlecruiser, so those little old Klingon ships were packing heat!

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[Dukhat]

That’s a really fuzzy shot from the series; do we know those ships aren’t just normal Mirandas? It seems funny that they would spend money on another Miranda variant instead of scanning others ships—like the Ambassador, Nova, or even the Olympic—especially for so far in the background.

I also believe that those ships are just standard Mirandas (i.e. unaltered Reliant model kits) rather than that one-off kitbash with the Excelsior stand. They would have just shot the same model at different angles and then duplicated them to create the appearance of multiple Mirandas at different orbits around the starbase. Using two different models that look 90% identical would have been a waste of time. I don't think that kitbash was ever used on screen.

As for those other ships you mentioned:

-They didn't have access to the Ambassador filming model to scan, as it was damaged and crated up somewhere;

-The Nova was already a CGI model (never a physical model) but for some reason it wasn't used, perhaps because it was owned by UPN and they didn't want to give it to the DS9 production staff?

-The Olympic was Bill George's personal model and was not owned or kept by the studio and was not available to be scanned.

This scene was a practical effect using models, as was the rag-tag remnants of the fleet seen in the opening of A Time To Stand. This was the period from where the infamous 'Frankenfleet' kit-bashes originate.

DS9 didn't switch over fully to CGI until later in the season - the fleet battle in Sacrifice of Angels.

Actually, the switchover came during the episode "Favor the Bold." They went from these far background AMT model kit shots:

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season6/605-favor-the-bold/favorthebold_584.jpg

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season6/605-favor-the-bold/favorthebold_617.jpg

To this all-CGI fleet, and went CG from there on out (other than random stock footage use of filming models):

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season6/605-favor-the-bold/favorthebold_636.jpg

 

[Tomalak]

-The Nova was already a CGI model (never a physical model) but for some reason it wasn't used, perhaps because it was owned by UPN and they didn't want to give it to the DS9 production staff?

You might be getting the timeline confused. The Equinox mesh was only built at the end of Voyager's season 5, concurrent with the production of DS9's final episodes. It was probably too late to include it on DS9, and presumably the Voyager production team would have wanted exclusivity having paid for it. The episodes aired a week or so apart.

The design had originated as the Defiant Pathfinder from the DS9TM a year or so prior, but that was just a single dorsal ortho.

They could have theoretically used the Prometheus model, as that was built during the previous season. That might have been neat to see in the WYLB battle scenes.

Actually, the switchover came during the episode "Favor the Bold."

Yeah, I was going to qualify that the fleet shot debuted at the end of the previous episode, I always think of them as a two-parter.

 

[Arpy]

I also believe that those ships are just standard Mirandas (i.e. unaltered Reliant model kits) rather than that one-off kitbash with the Excelsior stand. They would have just shot the same model at different angles and then duplicated them to create the appearance of multiple Mirandas at different orbits around the starbase. Using two different models that look 90% identical would have been a waste of time. I don't think that kitbash was ever used on screen.

Can’t say I’m a fan of it; more power to those that are. I too like the idea of using multiple variants of ships. I can imagine at least five variants of the Ambassador that might have been interesting to see: the original, the one in the DS9 premier, the Sternbach concept they never built, the Probert concept we’ve been subsequently blessed with renders of, and at least one entirely new one for good measure. As I write this I can’t help but think AI is likely going to explode the preponderance of tailor-made designs in the next decade. There’s so much good stuff to come…yes, along with a lot of crap, but glass half full, yeah?

As for those other ships you mentioned:

-They didn't have access to the Ambassador filming model to scan, as it was damaged and crated up somewhere;

The Ambassador is the biggest oversight for me in these fleet shots. In my head canon there are some there, and many others are like the lone ships in each sector holding things together while the fleets duke it out.

It would have been nice if they slapped together a quick render of the Ambassador (it wasn’t that complicated a design), even if only a low-poly one for the background—like the Norway Class.

-The Olympic was Bill George's personal model and was not owned or kept by the studio and was not available to be scanned.

Ditto a quick render of this one. Or just call George to use it again—it would only increase its value for him.

 

[Dukhat]

You might be getting the timeline confused. The Equinox mesh was only built at the end of Voyager's season 5, concurrent with the production of DS9's final episodes. It was probably too late to include it on DS9, and presumably the Voyager production team would have wanted exclusivity having paid for it. The episodes aired a week or so apart.

I couldn't remember when the overlap was. I think that if DS9 had in fact made new fleet shots for WYLB instead of just reusing stock footage, that they would have had time to use the Nova class CGI model, even though it had only debuted a few weeks earlier in "Equinox." But then again as you say, UPN might not have wanted to hand over their assets.

They could have theoretically used the Prometheus model, as that was built during the previous season. That might have been neat to see in the WYLB battle scenes.

Again, I get the impression that for whatever reason, they didn't allow the model to be used in DS9. They couldn't even use it over a year later in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" for the Bellerophon, instead having to use the Voyager filming model.

It would have been nice if they slapped together a quick render of the Ambassador (it wasn’t that complicated a design), even if only a low-poly one for the background—like the Norway Class.

They didn't have time for that. They didn't even have time to fix the render issues with the FC ships, choosing to show them in the far background to hide their imperfections.

Ditto a quick render of this one. Or just call George to use it again—it would only increase its value for him.

Again, they had no time to do that. They literally had to use whatever assets they had available, and for all we know George had his model in a crate in a storage unit somewhere that wasn't easily accessible.

 

[Arpy]

They didn't have time for that. They didn't even have time to fix the render issues with the FC ships, choosing to show them in the far background to hide their imperfections.

I mean, no one would notice a poorly rendered Ambassador either.

Again, they had no time to do that. They literally had to use whatever assets they had available, and for all we know George had his model in a crate in a storage unit somewhere that wasn't easily accessible.

The Dominion War arc lasted how many years? They had time. They put together a whole lot of ships Federation and Dominion over the course of the series. They just didn’t think of or push for it.

I really wish Jackill kept going with his Ships of the Fleet books. He stopped just before where the majority of the ships in the fleet should have be from. The Ambassador and especially the Galaxy eras would have been a lot more organic (the “technology unchained” esthetic) and were probably a lot harder to put together.

I remember Probert was not a fan of the Nebula design and wonder what his technology unchained version of the ship might have looked like.

The same for all of the old ship configurations in this new period. Plus whatever entirely new ones that might have sprung from it.

 

[Tomalak]

Again, I get the impression that for whatever reason, they didn't allow the model to be used in DS9. They couldn't even use it over a year later in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" for the Bellerophon, instead having to use the Voyager filming model.

That’s interesting, are you saying there was an intention to use the Prometheus? I’ve only ever heard that it was going to be an Intrepid to make use of the sets and the stock footage. I recall Admiral Ross was flying a Prometheus-class ship in the novelverse, but didn’t know it was a plan for Inter Arma.

But I quite like the idea that Starfleet would be so provocative to their new allies as to rock up at a diplomatic conference in the state-of-the-art battleship that lead to the Romulans suffering an embarrassing defeat the previous year!

 

[Macintosh]

I'm not sure if the plan was to use the Prometheus specifically but they wanted to use a ship other than the Defiant, specifically a "bigger ship" to "make the mission seem bigger and more important". Being able to use Voyager's standing sets therefore saved a lot of money. Though they ballsed up using Voyager's mess hall which very obviously had Neelix's kitchen visible despite that very much being an after-market modification...

 

[Tomalak]

To be fair they turned it into a bar area and closed off the kitchen. It worked fine.

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season7/716-inter-arma/enimsilentleges_153.jpg

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season7/716-inter-arma/enimsilentleges_322.jpg

 

[Macintosh]

To be fair they turned it into a bar area and closed off the kitchen. It worked fine.

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season7/716-inter-arma/enimsilentleges_153.jpg

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season7/716-inter-arma/enimsilentleges_322.jpg

Yeah, but when we first see it in VOY: "Caretaker" there's a wall of replicators there and no trace of the more familiar serving bar.

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(Let's not question too deeply how Neelix managed to remove this wall and build an entire kitchen in the captain's private dining room seemingly overnight without anyone noticing.)

 

[Dukhat]

I mean, no one would notice a poorly rendered Ambassador either.

The difference is that they already had three poorly rendered FC ships. They didn't need to make one from scratch.

The Dominion War arc lasted how many years? They had time. They put together a whole lot of ships Federation and Dominion over the course of the series. They just didn’t think of or push for it.

I'm a big fan of David Stipes, the visual effects coordinator for DS9's later seasons. He specifically stated in online interviews about, starting with the hastily put-together fleet at the end of "A Call to Arms," how little time and assets they had available for stuff like this. He gave a rundown of all the models, both physical and CGI, they had to come up with for that fleet, and then spoke abut the transition from physical to fully CGI later. Contrary to what one might think, he and his crew were not concerned about which type of ship class they used; that's just something that fans like us whine about after the fact. For example, if they had had a physical model or CGI model of the TOS Enterprise available, they would have used it despite it looking completely out of place, because they only used what they had available and did not have the time/feel the need to create something new. To them, a ship was a ship, and if they had enough Mirandas and Excelsiors to fill the scene with, that was fine with them. You need to get out of the headspace that they didn't 'push' for new ships just because you have a bias about what they used, because it had nothing to do with them wanting new ships.

That’s interesting, are you saying there was an intention to use the Prometheus? I’ve only ever heard that it was going to be an Intrepid to make use of the sets and the stock footage. I recall Admiral Ross was flying a Prometheus-class ship in the novelverse, but didn’t know it was a plan for Inter Arma.

No, to my knowledge there was never any intention to use the Prometheus. My point, rather, was that it would have been easier to use a CGI model for it rather than having to take the time to relabel and reregister the physical Voyager model and then having to film it for the opening scene in orbit of Romulus (although at least they could then use stock footage of Voyager in flight, which they did.)