Kurtzman intentionally killed Legacy?

[Daedalus]

"Once"? And yes. They are. There are not "good people on both sides".

This is mainly why I said "Borg" and not the collective. Not all Borg are bad, especially when disconnected from the hive mind. You used Hugh as a good example.

The Borg Cooperative are also an example of good borg. OK...a tad shady, but assimilation isn't their motive. Then there's Jurati's faction, whatever they are. An inherently good Borg collective with its own hive mind? I have no idea.

Bottom line is, I dont believe Shaw is the sort of person to see a distinction, not at first anyway. He just dislikes them all, based on his own Trauma. Picard gets it in the neck for being Locutus, as much Seven does.

Where Picard's writers monumentally effed up was that they show Shaw standing up to Picard in his dimly lit cabin, hiding from his crew, eating a steak. Was having him wear Kleenex boxes on his feet too obvious? Is he just a really big Blade Runner fan?

Lol, this is true. Why on Earth didn't they pan down?

 

[The Wormhole]

Shaw is just...whatever. A character that embodies anyone with an unconscious bias. The Borg did something bad once, so therefore all borg are bad. Same with Kirk and the Klingons, "let them die". People learn, people move on. If he ever calls her Annika again, I'll eat my hat.

Shaw's attitude towards Seven goes far beyond "she's a Borg and he had a traumatic experience with the Borg." We learn in the finale that he has in fact been referring to her as "Seven of Nine" all along in his official reports. The fact that he publicly called her "Annika Hansen" and made it official policy that that's how the ship's crew were to address her is a personal attack against her specifically. And remember, the log we see in the finale was recorded before the events of the season occur, which means we got eight whole episodes worth of material of him calling her Annika right after he recorded a log referring to her as Seven. Shaw was knowingly and intentionally referring to Seven by a name he knew she didn't like. That kind of behavior is appalling and completely indefensible.

And no, Shaw publicly calling her Seven of Nine with his dying breath doesn't make up for anything and in context with what was happening is perhaps even more insulting. After all, at that moment, Shaw was witnessing his ship and crew getting taken over by the Borg. The fact that he chose that moment to finally refer to her by her Borg designation in public is less about respecting her and more about raging against the fact that they are all amidst a Borg victory..

Also worth remembering that we're about to get a Trek movie about a genocidal maniac turned good....mostly. We're supposed to root for her and all! That's fine and dandy, but Shaw is somehow the reprehensible one?

Remind me, when did Georgiou ever deadname anyone?

 

[Tallguy]

Remind me, when did Georgiou ever deadname anyone?

You're... You're kidding, right?

 

[Daedalus]

Shaw's attitude towards Seven goes far beyond "she's a Borg and he had a traumatic experience with the Borg." We learn in the finale that he has in fact been referring to her as "Seven of Nine" all along in his official reports. The fact that he publicly called her "Annika Hansen" and made it official policy that that's how the ship's crew were to address her is a personal attack against her specifically. And remember, the log we see in the finale was recorded before the events of the season occur, which means we got eight whole episodes worth of material of him calling her Annika right after he recorded a log referring to her as Seven. Shaw was knowingly and intentionally referring to Seven by a name he knew she didn't like. That kind of behavior is appalling and completely indefensible.

And no, Shaw publicly calling her Seven of Nine with his dying breath doesn't make up for anything and in context with what was happening is perhaps even more insulting. After all, at that moment, Shaw was witnessing his ship and crew getting taken over by the Borg. The fact that he chose that moment to finally refer to her by her Borg designation in public is less about respecting her and more about raging against the fact that they are all amidst a Borg victory..

It's a direct lack of respect, which was obvious from the first episode. He hates the Borg, Seven included, with every fibre of his being and probably poops in her alcove for fun.

Remind me, when did Georgiou ever deadname anyone

Go no! She's that sweet and innocent, she would never do something like that. Give the bad bitch a break and let her eat some soup from the skull of a Vulcan who looked at her funny.

 

[fireproof78]

good....mostly. We're supposed to root for her and all! That's

We are?

There's a certain section of the fandom that wants him back ("Yup, that dem there Shaw's a REAL man!")

Oh, please. Shaw wanted to turn tail and run. He insulted Picard and Riker on the regular. Jellico and Clancy got castigated for worse.

The hypocrisy of opinions with this is astounding.

I live in a more rural area, and consider myself more conservative and even among such folks I don't see Shaw coming close to "real man".

 

[fireproof78]

Remind me, when did Georgiou ever deadname anyone?

It's almost like she grew up under a different moral system yet demonstrated willingness to change. She demonstrated the potential for human growth.

Closer in line with Quark.

Shaw should know better.

 

[Daedalus]

We are?

I guess? I would presume based on her being the main character.

It's almost like she grew up under a different moral system yet demonstrated willingness to change. She demonstrated the potential for human growth.

The Mirror Universe has plenty of people who don't do the terrible things she has. Her society making her do it really doesn't make it ok, and I really don't like this idea of holding one character to a higher standard than the other.

I have no issue with trying to be a better person, however. But, I'll still maintain that murder is worse than deadnaming. Way, way worse, in fact.

 

[fireproof78]

guess? I would presume based on her being the main character.

Being the main character doesn't mean that for me.

The Mirror Universe has plenty of people who don't do the terrible things she has. Her society making her do it really doesn't make it ok, and I really don't like this idea of holding one character to a higher standard than the other.

I hold characters to what they could reasonably know. Who taught Georgiou?

 

[Tallguy]

But, I'll still maintain that murder is worse than deadnaming. Way, way worse, in fact.

I'm so alarmed that this even has to be argued.

 

[Daedalus]

I hold characters to what they could reasonably know. Who taught Georgiou?

I don't suppose it was anyone who cared for political correctness, that's not sure.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Mirror Universe has plenty of people who don't do the terrible things she has.

Pretty much everyone in the Mirror Universe has committed an act of murder, as it literally is a kill or be killed kind of place. Maybe there are plenty of people who have never personally given the order to commit genocide, but that's only because they weren't in a position to do so.

 

[Daedalus]

Pretty much everyone in the Mirror Universe has committed an act of murder, as it literally is a kill or be killed kind of place. Maybe there are plenty of people who have never personally given the order to commit genocide, but that's only because they weren't in a position to do so.

Even Mirror Saru? It seems that in his later years he was saving people and sending off to safety. "A lot of them" according to The Guardian of Forever. He can't have been the only one.

 

[FederationHistorian]

A new viewer who only tuned in to S3 to see the TNG reunion (and who didn't see Picard die in S1) might well have wondered why the ship was being named for an active duty officer.

Kurtzman wants Trek accessible for new viewers. He doesn't want to burden new viewers with a ton of backstory.

A) Picard would have been retired.

B) It could also have been named after Renee Picard, for her accomplishments on the Io Mission. We know that the Picard lineage has a legacy of its own, so naming the ship after her or the family name would not have been a stretch. it would have worked within the continuity of the show.

Kurtzman may not want to burden viewers with a ton of backstory. But viewers will watch multiple seasons of a show if they are given a reason to do so.

 

[David cgc]

Making Borg into a trans allegory is HORRIFYINGLY problematic. It is an involuntary violation. Star Trek has never posited that there is an upside to Borg assimilation. (OK, if there is a Voyager episode that contradicts this then... *throws hands up in the air and gives up*) There is no choice. This is not becoming who you are meant to be. It is not correcting an accident of birth. It is an artificial organism that for some reason will not exist without growing and corrupting every thing it comes into contact with and is always roaming for that opportunity. You cannot make the ultimate boogeyman and then make he argument for tolerance and acceptance.

The novels did the same thing much more elegantly by having Seven go by just "Seven," disclaiming both the human identity of "Annika Hansen" and the Borg identity "Seven of Nine."

The more of her Borg-ness she kept made it more understandable why Shaw would be repulsed by her rejecting her human name from her human parents and embracing her Borg name (and, by extension, everything that goes along with it). Like, in a very real sense, "Seven (of Nine)" is the name she was born with on Voyager, which makes the deadnaming idea even more muddled. She didn't decide to stop being "Annika Hansen," that was taken from her, and she did decide to stop being "Seven of Nine, Tertiary blah-de-blah," but she kept the name.

Remind me, when did Georgiou ever deadname anyone?

She sexually harassed Culber and said he wasn't really gay because of all the threesomes she had with Mirror-Culber, how's that?

 

[The Wormhole]

Even Mirror Saru? It seems that in his later years he was saving people and sending off to safety. "A lot of them" according to The Guardian of Forever. He can't have been the only one.

Saru lucked out because the Guardian of Forever sent Georgiou back to live a different life. And that decision resulted in everyone else turning on Georgiou because of it.

Admittedly, I probably should have clarified "all humans in the MU" in my above post. Indeed, we know Mirror humans actually have a genetic predisposition towards being evil, according to Kovich.

She sexually harassed Culber and said he wasn't really gay because of all the threesomes she had with Mirror-Culber, how's that?

Allow me to split hairs and point out that was actually Stamets she sexually harassed. Culber got pissed, said "you know he's gay, right?" Which led to her snorting about how "binary" the Prime Universe is and that Mirror Stamets was a wild pansexual who knew how to have a good time.

 

[Daedalus]

Saru lucked out because the Guardian of Forever sent Georgiou back to live a different life. And that decision resulted in everyone else turning on Georgiou because of it.

Admittedly, I probably should have clarified "all humans in the MU" in my above post. Indeed, we know Mirror humans actually have a genetic predisposition towards being evil, according to Kovich.

This is probably true. Humans might actually be the issue rather than other species, pushing other species to be just as bad as a result. And I had forgotten about that line from Kovich, to be honest.

 

[Danja]

B) It could also have been named after Renee Picard, for her accomplishments on the Io Mission. We know that the Picard lineage has a legacy of its own, so naming the ship after her or the family name would not have been a stretch. it would have worked within the continuity of the show.

Good point.

The USS John S. McCain was named for John's father and grandfather (John and John II. Senator McCain was John III).

There is real world precedent.

USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

Admittedly, I probably should have clarified "all humans in the MU" in my above post. Indeed, we know Mirror humans actually have a genetic predisposition towards being evil, according to Kovich.

Georgieu said that was just an interrogation tactic. And I think there's something to be said for the Ferengi of the mirror universe all being kind and generous, so I don't think it's only humans who are flipped.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't suppose it was anyone who cared for political correctness, that's not sure.

Probably not. They embodied the "we are killers" idea from Kirk, the "very flower of humanity" to quote Spock at the end of "Mirror, Mirror."

This idea that they must know universally that things are wrong is an interesting one for Trek to unpack.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Good point.

The USS John S. McCain was named for John's father and grandfather (John and John II. Senator McCain was John III).

There is real world precedent.

USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yep.

And even with the flashforwards to a year later, Picard could have been retired once again. So, there would not have been anything wrong with named the ship USS Picard, aside from retroactively disrespecting all previous crews of the Titan lineage. Name a sister ship would make more sense.

I just think they did not bother naming the ship as such because the executive producers envisioned PIC as a three season show with Patrick Stewart at the helm. Instead of a five season show that not just deconstructs the character of Picard, and examines his legacy and the burden his legacy leaves others. Plus, the uncertainty caused by the Paramount-Skydance merger. It's also why talks about a Picard movie, and how we get there - supposedly a season of Legacy leading into the movie - is a bit confusing.

That’s what helped create the oddity around renaming the Titan-A the Ent-G and everyone waiting around for Legacy to get off the ground.