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The last episode

I’m watching the series chronologically, so, beyond not really having a nostalgic hit from the appearances in the finale, the whole thing felt sort of robbed. Then just having a ten year time jump tacked on…nah. Not to mention the unnecessary death.

Overall, loved Enterprise but did not love that finale.
 
Time jump bad. :thumbdown:
No changes worse. :thumbdown::thumbdown:
Trip death real bad. :mad:
No Archer speech bad. :angryrazz:
Riker should be good. :shrug:
Riker in series finale bad. If Jonathan Frakes says bad, it's bad. :censored:
Shran good. :)
End sequence with three Enterprises good. :mallory:
Not much else good. :sigh:

Rick Berman's handling of VOY and ENT was a sour symphony of mostly dreadful decisions. And TATV was the grand finale.
 
I still wonder how this episode would have been viewed, had it not been the series' finale, but a random S2 episode.

(My feeling is that it would have been considered a lower tier ep, and a weird one at that (why does it feature TNG characters), but not as vehemently hated as it is now).

It would be seen as yet another weak S2 episode.

And we'd spend a lot of time wondering why no one got promoted or transferred off the NX-01 permanently over ten years. And that none of them died during the Romulan Wars.

Basically, a lot of the flaws with the episode that we still see today.

Also random thought, what if it were someone else? I doubt it'd have changed the backlash... but Troi does feel like rent a guest star by this point and Riker's motivation was lacking.

Wouldn't it have been better as a Sisko story? He's facing the potential end of the Federation in the war against the Dominion and he wants to remind himself what he's fighting for? How Archer succeeded in uniting warring races for peace... when it seemed impossible.

It may have been better off as a post-TOS, pre-TNG story centered around either Sulu, or Uhura, or Chekov, or Chapel, or Number One. And they are trying out the holodeck for the first time, choosing to interact with their childhood heroes.

Time jump bad. :thumbdown:
No changes worse. :thumbdown::thumbdown:
Trip death real bad. :mad:
No Archer speech bad. :angryrazz:
Riker should be good. :shrug:
Riker in series finale bad. If Jonathan Frakes says bad, it's bad. :censored:
Shran good. :)
End sequence with three Enterprises good. :mallory:
Not much else good. :sigh:
Two major edits would have fixed half the problems with the episode automatically.

- The TNG part of the episode took place between “All Good Things…” and GEN. Instead of during "The Pegasus".

- Remove the overreliance of the holodeck in the episode. Like leave the opening scene and the Federation founding scene on the holodeck, but have the rest be read and narrated by Riker from a PADD from the secret diaries of Chef and other crewmembers of the NX-01.

Then the appearance of Riker and Troi on the Ent-D doesn’t seem out of place, and Riker’s holodeck use doesn’t clash with the limited time he has when Pressman visits in "The Pegasus". Meanwhile, the ENT crew is seen one more time in the finale instead of the proceeding episode and it would feel more like an ENT episode instead of a TNG episode. And it would have still bridged the two series together.

Yes, there are other changes they should have done - either not kill Trip or at least have his death be more meaningful; develop the Trip/T'Pol relationship with a pregnancy after many years of trying or marriage instead of ending it; not overhype Archer's speech; promotions for everyone along with a transfer to Columbia for Reed and Mayweather. But the two above are the biggest ones that should have been made, imo.

Rick Berman's handling of VOY and ENT was a sour symphony of mostly dreadful decisions. And TATV was the grand finale.
It as not a fitting finale for the ENT cast. And it was not good that TNG was dragged into this mess either, considering the NEM debacle was a couple of years prior. It was a disservice to both shows and both casts. Horrible sendoff for both.

But it felt like an appropriate end for Berman's run, considering the issues with the franchise that started to crop up around the time of INS, both onscreen and BTS. That’s one of the few silver linings that I can find with the episode. All the issues with Berman's run at the end of it can be summed up in this episode.
 
I really wish that the Blu-ray release had a "movie-length" edit of Demons/Terra Prime as an extra option, the way a few of the TNG two-parters got as separate releases. Just to make it that little bit extra "series finale"-like.

I've never felt that Demons/Terra Prime would have made a better series finale than what we got. The episodes were not written to be a finale, and I think that if ENT actually did have a proper ending, nobody would be thinking 'man, Terra Prime would have been so much better.' YMMV.

I still wonder how this episode would have been viewed, had it not been the series' finale, but a random S2 episode.

(My feeling is that it would have been considered a lower tier ep, and a weird one at that (why does it feature TNG characters), but not as vehemently hated as it is now).

I've said this before: The concept of people from the future viewing past events by holodeck is, in and of itself, an interesting idea. But unless those events are a true account of what happened, then

1. That story should not be used as a series finale, and

2. The observers should not be the primary focus of the episode.

...both of which they did in TATV.
 
A mid-season Riker/Troi tempoeral agent episode as suggested above, with Daniels confirming the timeline had been restored and see them heading to a celebration of Enterprise or the Federation, set around some form of excuse (222nd anniversary or whatever?)

Then have the final episode with an ending good enough to finish off (camera zooming out ala "skys the limit", Kirk and Jake, Voyager heading for Earth, or Enterprise and Excelsior parting ways.

You could then have the few minutes of epilogue on the last episode, "222 years later", with Riker/Troi entering where we left them off, and some cameo characters from TNG, DS9, Voyager (maybe have Nimoy there too), all sat there watching the Archer speech recording before breaking into the Kirk/Picard/Archer flybys to end the era.
 
I've never felt that Demons/Terra Prime would have made a better series finale than what we got. The episodes were not written to be a finale, and I think that if ENT actually did have a proper ending, nobody would be thinking 'man, Terra Prime would have been so much better.' YMMV.



I've said this before: The concept of people from the future viewing past events by holodeck is, in and of itself, an interesting idea. But unless those events are a true account of what happened, then

1. That story should not be used as a series finale, and

2. The observers should not be the primary focus of the episode.

...both of which they did in TATV.

I agree with that, it never should have been a series' finale. But as a regular ep, it would have been somewhat weak, but OK.

As for the 'true account of what happened', I believe it is intended to be approximately what happened. It is, after all, a 'historic holoprogram' as Riker calls it.

Unfortunately, we don't know how approximately. After all, 'a historic holoprogram' can mean anything, from 'an exciting adventure with a historic costume sauce thrown over it just to add some flavour' to 'the most elaborate and exacting historical reconstruction ever made, corroborated by countless historians', and anything in between. But I tend to believe this holoprogram was based on the actual source materials (surviving logs and such).

Even so, they're bound to get a few details wrong in the 24th history, such a reconstruction will never be 100% accurate. Just as we would if we were to try to reconstruct an event from the Napoleonic era.

We know some liberties are taken anyway, as Riker says at some point " Computer, add an appropriate crew complement, objective mode."

Well, at least they didn't try to sell us that 'all of Enterprise was just a series of holodeck programs Riker played'.
 
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As for the 'true account of what happened', I believe it is intended to be approximately what happened. It is, after all, a 'historic holoprogram' as Riker calls it.

Unfortunately, we don't know how approximately. After all, 'a historic holoprogram' can mean anything, from 'an exciting adventure with a historic costume sauce thrown over it just to add some flavour' to 'the most elaborate and exacting historical reconstruction ever made, corroborated by countless historians', and anything in between. But I tend to believe this holoprogram was based on the actual source materials (surviving logs and such).

I agree that unless someone in charge comes along and states that it didn't happen the way we saw it on screen (which, so far, has not happened), that we have to take what we saw at face value. Now with that being said, the glitch comes from the fact that Riker was actually playing parts in the holoprogram, so unless those parts were actual people that Riker was imitating word-for-word and action-for-action, the program wouldn't be 100% accurate.
 
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I've never felt that Demons/Terra Prime would have made a better series finale than what we got.
Sometimes a show doesn't need a "FINALE!" it just needs to end on a good episode.

The episodes were not written to be a finale
Kinda sorta.

"...The way we structured the season was that Demons and Terra Prime were going to be a kind of quasi-finale..." - Manny Coto. https://www.trektoday.com/news/100505_01.shtml

"Coto reiterated his feeling that the penultimate episodes, "Demons" and "Terra Prime", constitute the real finale of Enterprise, though he added that the series really had two endings with "These Are the Voyages..." as well." - https://www.trektoday.com/news/090605_03.shtml
 
Sometimes a show doesn't need a "FINALE!" it just needs to end on a good episode.

I guess, although I can't think of an instance off the top of my head where that was the case (i.e. where I thought, 'if the show ended right now, I'd be happy,' and then it did.) Can you?

Kinda sorta.

"...The way we structured the season was that Demons and Terra Prime were going to be a kind of quasi-finale..." - Manny Coto. https://www.trektoday.com/news/100505_01.shtml

"Coto reiterated his feeling that the penultimate episodes, "Demons" and "Terra Prime", constitute the real finale of Enterprise, though he added that the series really had two endings with "These Are the Voyages..." as well." - https://www.trektoday.com/news/090605_03.shtml

So Coto was aware that ENT had already been canceled when he produced those episodes? I didn't know that was the case.
 
^^ Season 4 felt to me like TPTB knew they realistically only had one season left, and they proceeded to cram 4 years of high-concept ideas into S4 (like the Soong and Vulcan trilogies, IaMD, the Klingon foreheads), and abandon or truncate storylines that had been set up in S3 (Trip/T'Pol relationship, T'Pol dealing with her emotions, PTSD fallout from the Xindi war, Romulans) and jettisoning character development of the supporting cast (Phlox home world, Shran storyline setting up his joining the cast, Soval/Archer alliance).

So it makes sense to think Manny was saddled with the Thing early on as the official Last Episode and knew from a mile off that it wouldn't be a satisfying sendoff to many fans, so he did what he could to make Demons/TP a more emotionally-satisfying story. But he couldn't write it as a full-blown series finale because the Beebs were insisting they might still get a Season 5, or "TATV is a great finale! A veritable valentine to the fans!" :ack:
 
I guess, although I can't think of an instance off the top of my head where that was the case (i.e. where I thought, 'if the show ended right now, I'd be happy,' and then it did.) Can you?
Yes, in retrospect...Terra Prime. ;)

I also thought it for the brief time when we didn't know if the new Quantum Leap was cancelled. I honestly thought, "If this is the last episode, I'm fine with it."

What I mean is, Terra Prime may or may not be good as a grand finale, but when the next episode is a wet fart, it sours everything.
 
I've never felt that Demons/Terra Prime would have made a better series finale than what we got. The episodes were not written to be a finale, and I think that if ENT actually did have a proper ending, nobody would be thinking 'man, Terra Prime would have been so much better.' YMMV.
At worst, “Demons”/”Terra Prime” would have been seen as another “Endgame” or "Turnabout Intruder". But compared to relentlessly negative reception TATV got, “Demons”/”Terra Prime” might have compelled TPTB to take a chance and make an ENT tv movie, seeing as no one hated those episodes, or saw those episodes as an albatross on the series.

ENT already had enough stock footage accumulated to create a passable Earth-Romulan War movie. They could have added the DY-100 model from the TOS-R to the Earth/Coalition fleet. They could have reused the Valdore-type, and the Scimitar models from NEM, and maybe reskin some Vulcan, Klingon Xindi and Wisp ships seen in ENT to flesh out the Romulan fleet.

They never needed to rebuild the ENT sets that were torn down. Archer never even needed to be on Enterprise or any other ship during the movie (that could have been Reed in the captain’s chair with a green screen behind him when he’s communicating with Archer). Archer being on Earth or Babel or Andoria or Vulcan while building the Federation behind the scenes with Hoshi & Porthos by his side and Reed, Mayweather & Phlox popping in to give updates from the front line would have sufficed. Trip and T’Pol being on assignment on Romulus together would have sufficed. Enterprise only being seen at warp, or cloaking, or in battle, or in orbit of other worlds would have sufficed.

And it would have completed ENT's story better.
 
At worst, “Demons”/”Terra Prime” would have been seen as another “Endgame” or "Turnabout Intruder". But compared to relentlessly negative reception TATV got, “Demons”/”Terra Prime” might have compelled TPTB to take a chance and make an ENT tv movie, seeing as no one hated those episodes, or saw those episodes as an albatross on the series.

That would not have happened. UPN was done with ENT and Star Trek in general. They would have cancelled ENT after the third season, but they needed enough episodes to sell it to syndication. So they let Coto do whatever he wanted because by that time they had all stopped caring about ENT because they knew it was destined for cancellation, and was too expensive to produce in comparison to the revenue they were getting. Making a TV movie would have been counterproductive to their cost-benefit accounting.

ENT already had enough stock footage accumulated to create a passable Earth-Romulan War movie.

Ah, the Ed Wood School of filmmaking. Let's make an entire movie out of stock footage! Because the audience loves cheap!

They could have added the DY-100 model from the TOS-R to the Earth/Coalition fleet.

Huh? TOS-R was being made while production had already started on JJ Abrams' Star Trek. By that time, the idea of a Romulan war TV/theatrical movie had already sailed.

They could have reused the Valdore-type, and the Scimitar models from NEM,

So, ships from the late 24th century for a 22nd century Romulan war movie?

and maybe reskin some Vulcan, Klingon Xindi and Wisp ships seen in ENT to flesh out the Romulan fleet.

How very unoriginal. Ships that look almost like ENT Vulcan, Klingon, Xindi and Wisp (?) ships, but aren't. That's exactly how I envisioned the Romulan war would look like for the last 58 years I've known about it. :rolleyes:

They never needed to rebuild the ENT sets that were torn down. Archer never even needed to be on Enterprise or any other ship during the movie (that could have been Reed in the captain’s chair with a green screen behind him when he’s communicating with Archer). Archer being on Earth or Babel or Andoria or Vulcan while building the Federation behind the scenes with Hoshi & Porthos by his side and Reed, Mayweather & Phlox popping in to give updates from the front line would have sufficed. Trip and T’Pol being on assignment on Romulus together would have sufficed. Enterprise only being seen at warp, or cloaking, or in battle, or in orbit of other worlds would have sufficed.

Wow. Ok. I'm not sure what to even say about all that.

And it would have completed ENT's story better.

No. What would have completed ENT's story better was to have the people producing it actually give a shit about it, unlike UPN. Why would you think a UPN-produced Romulan war movie made on the cheap would have been any better than the effort they put into TATV?
 
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Time jump bad. :thumbdown:
No changes worse. :thumbdown::thumbdown:
Trip death real bad. :mad:
No Archer speech bad. :angryrazz:
Riker should be good. :shrug:
Riker in series finale bad. If Jonathan Frakes says bad, it's bad. :censored:
Shran good. :)
End sequence with three Enterprises good. :mallory:
Not much else good. :sigh:

Rick Berman's handling of VOY and ENT was a sour symphony of mostly dreadful decisions. And TATV was the grand finale.
Trip's death made this crappy episode even worse and was totally unneccessary.
 
That would not have happened. UPN was done with ENT and Star Trek in general. They would have cancelled ENT after the third season, but they needed enough episodes to sell it to syndication. So they let Coto do whatever he wanted because by that time they had all stopped caring about ENT because they knew it was destined for cancellation, and was too expensive to produce in comparison to the revenue they were getting. Making a TV movie would have been counterproductive to their cost-benefit accounting.
Well, we’ll never know now, will we? Since TATV left a sour taste in everyone’s mouth. So sour that ENT has only had callbacks and a Very Short Trek to its name since then.

Ah, the Ed Wood School of filmmaking. Let's make an entire movie out of stock footage! Because the audience loves cheap!
Reusing stock footage did not hurt DS9’s storytelling of the Dominion War.

Huh? TOS-R was being made while production had already started on JJ Abrams' Star Trek. By that time, the idea of a Romulan war TV/theatrical movie had already sailed.
The Connie seen in ENT (IMAD and TATV) literally comes from TOS-R.

So, ships from the late 24th century for a 22nd century Romulan war movie?

They did reuse a bunch of studio models from VOY for ENT. So it’s not that far of a stretch that something like this would have been done.

How very unoriginal. Ships that look almost like ENT Vulcan, Klingon, Xindi and Wisp (?) ships, but aren't. That's exactly how I envisioned the Romulan war would look like for the last 58 years I've known about it.
Why would Romulans not have ships that resemble Vulcans ships if they are an offshoot race from them?

The Klingon BoP was intended to be an Romulan ship anyways in TSFS. Would make for a nice callback to the idea.

Since some of the Xindi were wearing Reman uniform, why is it such a stretch that some Xindi ships are repurposed to be Romulan ships?

Wisp ships (from "The Crossing") have no warp drive that can be identified, as established in the episode. Sound perfect for the Romulans to use and creates continuity with "Balance of Terror" when it comes to warp drives.
Wow. Ok. I'm not sure what to even say about all that.
You could say, “thanks for the idea, but that's not how I would do it" if you disagree with the pitch.

Even though the pitch was meant to show the development and birth of the Federation liek ENt was supposed to show, and address the status of Trip & T'Pol's relationship after the bizzare developments from TATV.

No. What would have completed ENT's story better was to have the people producing it actually give a shit about it, unlike UPN. Why would you think a UPN-produced Romulan war movie made on the cheap would have been any better than the effort they put into TATV?
It would have been on CW, not UPN. But that's all water under the bridge now.

You are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine. Let's leave it at that.

Trip's death made this crappy episode even worse and was totally unneccessary.
If Trip's death had been about protecting the ship from falling apart due to a decade of wear and tear, instead of dying in a stupid way to stop pirates that should not have been able to catch up to the ship in the first place, it would have been better received.

If Trip was also trying to protect specifically T'Pol and his unborn child after years of trying with her after the events of "Terra Prime", along with his friends and cremates, it would have been even better.

Instead of the past couple of decades being about the failings of TATV, it could have been a debate as to whether Archer made the right decision in jeopardizing the lives of the entire crew and founding of the Federation to help Shran for those few hours.
 
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So Coto was aware that ENT had already been canceled when he produced those episodes? I didn't know that was the case.
They were cancelled while filming 'In a Mirror Darkly Part 2'. So yes, but I imagine pre-production would have started already.
 
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