What has the new series done to ruin Star Trek this time?

[Kor]

I think they ruined Trek by making a second pilot. Everything since then has gone downhill.

Pfffsh, the filmed pilot went off the rails. The One And Only True Star Trek® is about the S.S. Yorktown (none of that "USS" stuff, thankyouverymuch) with the "skipper" Captain Robert M. April and the "probably half Martian" Mr. Spock with the Satanic face and reddish complexion. The best episodes by far were "A Question of Cannibalism" and "To Skin a Tyrannosaurus."



Kor

 

[James Cole]

We’ve watched Jaws recently. No need to watch the sequels and the fact they are shit takes nothing away from Jaws. Likewise, we watched Terminator and Terminator 2, Alien and Aliens… Predator… Poltergeist… The Exorcist… no need to go beyond. The originals are brilliant and no amount of financially mandated studio milking or misjudged projects can change that.

One key difference here has been the historical uniqueness of the Star Trek franchise. It was essentially its own subgenre within genre. You had hundreds of episodes gradually building upon each other. Not perfectly, but with intentionality. It's first and foremost a TV series. So, yes, everything from 1966-2005 is "still there". But any future tie-ins will be seemingly beholden to NuTrek. So a TOS novel or game will really likely be a SNW sequel. No matter how good SFA will be, it'll still be bogged down with all the retcons of DISCOVERY. So at best it'd have to be viewed as its own siloed-off thing.

They muddied it even further with the Discovery version being seen in holographic form in Picard season one.

Well for all we know that was the exhibit on alternate timeline Enterprises. Perhaps in the Disco timeline, the Enterprise-D had a different shuttlebay layout? Whereas the USS New Jersey does play off the comment Picard made to Scotty in "Relics" about an original Constitution class being in the fleet museum

Well then why don't they just write single episodes without any connection at all? I never expected them to follow stuff from the comics, books or cartoon. But when fans remember stuff from decades ago and the writers don't respect that...... Then why even reference stuff or rewrite past stories? Just make new stuff and be done with it. Because some of us like a cohesive story. It they don't want to do that fine. Then they should create new stuff instead of constantly going back and mining elements from past series and episodes.

This was my breaking point with SNW. The unclear setting as almost a mystery box. Is that foreshadowing, an error, or a retcon?

The "Franchise Box" is the only reason Star Trek survived.

If subsequent Star Trek projects were all just reboots or just existed in their own bubble, we wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of Star Trek we have. The creators full well know this... it's why Discovery was absolutely a reboot, but they couldn't acknowledge it as a reboot. Even '09 had to be a Reboot w/ Caveat.

Speaking for myself, the franchise is a large aspect of why I like and watch Star Trek. The further it drifts away from that, the less i'm interested in it.

PICARD season 2 at least was bad Star Trek, but didn't take a wrecking ball to established continuity. DISCOVERY / SNW? So different it's easy to just walk away.

"Ugh, why are Star Trek fans so toxic?"

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[Citiprime]

This was my breaking point with SNW. The unclear setting as almost a mystery box. Is that foreshadowing, an error, or a retcon?

To me, season 2's "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" was the breaking point. It's one of the dumbest episodes of Star Trek they've ever done.

And what compounds the stupidity is Akiva Goldsman's responses to questions about why they did it, and claiming that they needed Star Trek to still be a believable "aspirational" future. So they moved the Eugenics Wars and made Khan Canadian.

But everything else in that episode has the characters doing things that aren't believable within a modern context, which just makes it seem like those in charge can't see the forest for the trees.

• How did they get a hotel room without any money? Chess hustling.
• How did they get a hotel room in the modern day with no ID or credit card?????
• How did they cross an international border with no passport or ID?????????
• How did they not get detained after getting into a police chase in the middle of Toronto????????

It's like they want to take swings at the broad strokes of canon, but don't bother the details.

 

[BillJ]

And what compounds the stupidity is Akiva Goldsman's responses to questions about why they did it, and claiming that they needed Star Trek to still be a believable "aspirational" future. So they moved the Eugenics Wars and made Khan Canadian.

I haven't seen the episode, but, wow, that sucks. Glad I haven't watched the second season.

 

[fireproof78]

This.

To this day, I still feel it's one of the cardinal mistakes of Discovery that they made her Spock's foster sister. None of the other spinoffs felt the need to have that deep of connective tissue. And there was no need for it with Discovery. They should have let Burnham's story be her own, and live or die on their ability to make it work without Spock and Sarek.

Beyond that, I think what made a lot of fans wince and wonder about what was going on is the INSISTENCE that everything was happening in the Prime Timeline from the producers and Paramount, even though right out of the gates they introduce THAT version of the Klingons.

And it felt almost like someone gaslighting you, trying to convince you that you're crazy for questioning whether any of this fit together with what had come before.

People can question it all they want. They can even say "Well, I treat it as a separate timeline."

Good!

Or don't fucking watch it. There is no mandate to watch all of Star Trek. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

Paramount/CBS is not beholden to fan feelings and fans are not beholden to Paramount/CBS.

We'd do well to remember that and stop trying to force everyone to agree on everything.

I take it you don't really understand humans?

I really don't.

Humans are confusing mess of ridiculousness. So consumed with personal animus rather than respect of differences.

It's like they want to take swings at the broad strokes of canon, but don't bother the details.

So, again, and why TOS worked so well, this is TOS. Or, more appropriately, a Western, with anachronisms all day long on weapons, locations and history.

And what compounds the stupidity is Akiva Goldsman's responses to questions about why they did it, and claiming that they needed Star Trek to still be a believable "aspirational" future. So they moved the Eugenics Wars and made Khan Canadian.

Wow.

He said the quiet part out loud, since TNG did that.

 

[James Cole]

And what compounds the stupidity is Akiva Goldsman's responses to questions about why they did it, and claiming that they needed Star Trek to still be a believable "aspirational" future. So they moved the Eugenics Wars and made Khan Canadian.

I didn't make it that far. Does it even mesh with the end of PICARD season 2?

And again, in the first SNW episode they set a second US civil war in the 2020s and greatly upped the WWIII body count to I think 1/3rd of the world population. So in trying to "solve" a minor problem, they created several major new ones. Whereas the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s can be handwaved with the real world examples of when did WWII really start (Spanish civil war, Japanese invasion of Manchuria, Italy in Ethiopia...) or end (Soviet occupation of the Baltics until 1990s, German reunification...) to square Spock's comment about historians in "Space Seed". Just imagine someone on the internet saying well, actually, World War II was really just a continuation of World War I so they should be counted as one thing!

Will SNW need a clean up to the clean up when there is no second civil war by the time of a season 5?

And this doesn't even cover delaying the Eugenics Wars. What if World War II was delayed until, say, the 1960s? The world would look massively different by the present day. Different generations would be born / die...

 

[BillJ]

So, again, and why TOS worked so well, this is TOS. Or, more appropriately, a Western, with anachronisms all day long on weapons, locations and history.

Problem being, that isn't what CBS was selling. We were reassured all through the various productions that this was all "Prime", this would all line up. It isn't, or, at least, it isn't the TOS Prime universe. They've decided to largely cut that from the picture, except when they need to peddle their wares.

 

[fireproof78]

Problem being, that isn't what CBS was selling. We were reassured all through the various productions that this was all "Prime", this would all line up. It isn't, or, at least, it isn't the TOS Prime universe. They've decided to largely cut that from the picture, except when they need to peddle their wares.

That's only a problem for CBS.

I'm not beholden to them; they're not beholden to me. As a friend of mine said about George Lucas ignoring aspects of novels and his own films: "Lucas can do whatever the hell he wants and doesn't owe me a damn thing."

And, I'll still lean in to my Western idea because half the firearms that appear in Westerns were modern (at the time) or their equivalent. "But, fireproof, that's nitpicking!"

Huh, I guess it is. But Star Trek fans would never do that!

 

[BillJ]

I'm not beholden to them; they're not beholden to me. As a friend of mine said about George Lucas ignoring aspects of novels and his own films: "Lucas can do whatever the hell he wants and doesn't owe me a damn thing."

I treat it as a multiverse, and time and again I'm told I'm wrong because of author intent.

 

[Citiprime]

I didn't make it that far. Does it even mesh with the end of PICARD season 2?

Yes and no. The implication from Picard season 2 is that Soong is going to restart the work on the Khan project. But the folder he picks up already has a 1996 date on it. Implying it's something that was attempted in the past.

However, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" has a Romulan time agent that has been trying to mess with Earth's history. According to her, her actions only delays Khan's arrival in the timeline, instead of eliminating his existence entirely.

Therefore, it's for this reason some feel SNW has already acknowledged on its own that it takes place in an altered timeline from the Prime Universe. Especially, given that Khan states a specific date of 1996 for when the Botany Bay left Earth in Wrath of Khan.

 

[BillJ]

Especially, given that Khan gives a specific date of 1996 for when the Botany Bay left Earth in Wrath of Khan.

Which meshes with Spock's 1992-1996 dating of The Eugenics Wars, in "Space Seed".

 

[BillJ]

Wait, Khan's Canadian now? They trying to line SNW up with the Abramsverse?

 

[James Cole]

I treat it as a multiverse, and time and again I'm told I'm wrong because of author intent.

One showrunner commented that SNW was "set in another time and another place", and PICARD season 2/3 production designer Dave Blass has been pretty consistent in this interpretation as well.

Yes and no. The implication from Picard season 2 is that Soong is going to restart the work on the Khan project. But the folder he picks up already has a 1996 date on it. Implying it's something that was attempted in the past.

However, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" has a Romulan time agent that has been trying to mess with Earth's history. According to her, her actions only delays Khan's arrival in the timeline, instead of eliminating his existence entirely.

Yeah the PS2 part does a good job instead of setting up the Soong from the ENT augments three parter.

And, would that even be the same Khan then? He was just one among many. If anything, it sounds like the tampering made the Eugenics Wars + core World War III far more deadly.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

And what compounds the stupidity is Akiva Goldsman's responses to questions about why they did it, and claiming that they needed Star Trek to still be a believable "aspirational" future. So they moved the Eugenics Wars and made Khan Canadian.

I never, ever understood the need to do this… and all it is potentially going to do is set a trend for further shows to kick the can down the road in the future.

Most established sci-fi universes have their own timeline of events that they play within and survive, indeed thrive, on the back of their own established mythology. So why retroactively change events within Star Trek’s established history just so it can fit more within ‘real’ events?

Edith Keeler never existed. That doesn’t make The City on the Edge of Forever less ‘aspirational’. Something doesn’t have to fit in with the real world to do so, so… why?

I think 99.9% of the viewing audience watches on the understanding that Star Trek isn’t real and… they don’t care, like they don’t care that Mulder or Scully aren’t real or that there’s no such thing as a TARDIS or… well, you get the idea.

Fucking around with this kind of thing does more to break the illusion from my perspective. I was perfectly happy, watching in the 00s for the first time, with the idea that the Eugenics Wars took place in the 1990s, because I was absolutely aware that I was watching fiction.

I’m pretty sure most fans felt the same?

It’s just mind-boggling. It’s not a deal breaker, or something that annoys me. It’s just weird. Fiction does not need to be connected to any sort of reality in order to be aspirational.

 

[BillJ]

And, would that even be the same Khan then? He was just one among many. If anything, it sounds like the tampering made the Eugenics Wars + core World War III far more deadly.

Of course, not. It isn't remotely the same timeline, it simply can't be. The death of someone who ran a soup kitchen caused the Federation to not be developed. The new Khan would be an entirely different person with the same name.

 

[Campe]

Wait, Khan's Canadian now? They trying to line SNW up with the Abramsverse?

They find him in Canada. That does not make him Canadian.

 

[James Cole]

Of course, not. It isn't remotely the same timeline, it simply can't be. The death of someone who ran a soup kitchen caused the Federation to not be developed. The new Khan would be an entirely different person with the same name.

Yeah a lot of this comes down to people citing "Rule of God" (in the TV Tropes sense) and general appeals to authority. It's a lot easier to be in the position of defending the party line where you can throw the gatekeeping card at any criticism than be on the other side critiquing the ruling party. This is why I don't bother with SNW for the most part.

 

[BillJ]

This is why I don't bother with SNW for the most part.

I really wanted to like SNW, and did, early on. Then, we got the Xenomorph Gorn, Kirk being there all the time, the weird season finale, and I just kinda moved on. They laid the nostalgia on so thick, that it feels like they're winking at me. That and I really enjoyed Anson Mount's run on Hell on Wheels. To the point that I treat Cullen Bohannon as an ancestor of Christopher Pike.

Just one of those things where you can't go home again.

 

[BillJ]

Oh, and the Noonien-Singh woman. They still have such a hardon for Khan, 40+ years after TWoK, that they can't let him go.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Problem being, that isn't what CBS was selling. We were reassured all through the various productions that this was all "Prime", this would all line up. It isn't, or, at least, it isn't the TOS Prime universe. They've decided to largely cut that from the picture, except when they need to peddle their wares.

I do recall the fanfare around DSC before it aired that it would be set in the prime universe… I think it came as a kind of reassurance for certain fans who felt hostile towards the Kelvin movies and served as a pacifier. A way to assure fans that this was ‘proper’ Star Trek.

10 minutes of the first episode of DSC blew all of that out of the water though, didn’t it? Because, and this is not meant as a criticism, clearly, visually, it wasn’t even making half an effort to adopt any previously established visual language to be within the same universe.

I mean, I got over it. Largely I enjoy DSC and SNW too. I just wish they’d drop the pretence and say it’s all something different. Then I wish they’d totally go to town with that and do something different. Surprise us. In Season 3, kill Scotty before Kirk even comes aboard… or kill Kirk and leave Pike as the captain of the Enterprise and have him avoid his accident.

I find it very odd that on the one hand exists this need to be iconoclastic and reimagine what went before so explicitly, but on the other exists this sense of timidity in reassuring folks that it’s all the same thing.

I wish all involved had the stones to just plant a flag at the top of a hill and be prepared to die on it.