Whenever I hear "woke" from any political punditry I just roll my eyes and think of Captain Holt.
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
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I agree with you. It is similar to how the term "liberal" was subverted during the 1988 presidential election to be used as an insult. I remember it inspired an SNL sketch that spoofed the fugitive.
In terms of pertaining to the MCU, has the anti-woke propaganda had some effect on how a number of the the movies and shows have been perceived over the past five years?
Certainly the voices on that side have made an attempt to smear productions like The Marvels, but I don't believe their rhetoric has had a significant effect, considering that there was just as much sexist trash talk about Captain Marvel and it wasn't hurt at the box office. And I'm sure they attacked Black Panther too, and it was a huge smash.
Honestly, I think the problem with the perception of the MCU is that Infinity War/Endgame distorted people's expectations too much. They see the subsequent productions as "unfocused" or "directionless" when they've really just returned to the approach of the first couple of "Phases" of the MCU where the emphasis was on the individual works or series and the interconnections were a background element.
I don't know if it is just perception or if people just are not as engaged with Marvel. Even my 15-year-old, who was a huge Marvel fan and did a full rewatch in preparation for Endgame and such with movies decided to rewatch "Age of Ultron" because that was "back when Marvel was good."
So, I see engagement being down for a lot of reasons.
So, I see engagement being down for a lot of reasons.
Age of Ultron was the first big Marvel event for my family because it was the first time we took our kids to see an MCU movie. Since then, we've seen every Marvel film together in the theater with the exception being the current Deadpool for reasons beyond our control.
I am not sure if it is just because of redundancy or quality but I know our overall enthusiasm has tapered off in the last few years. Whereas I've generally liked the post-Endgame movies, for me they have been overshadowed by the Marvel series which have really been able to explore the characters more fully. IMO, the only missteps have been Secret Wars, Ant-Man, and to a certain extent The Marvels. I would have liked to have a longer movie that had more time to explore the characters as I had been pretty invested in Monica and Carol's relationship, and was interested in seeing more time with Kamala and her family.
I tend to appreciate the stories that have time to wander in and out of the A plot a little more as we've seen the big action stuff and I want to see more time with the actual characters.
I am not sure if it is just because of redundancy or quality but I know our overall enthusiasm has tapered off in the last few years. Whereas I've generally liked the post-Endgame movies, for me they have been overshadowed by the Marvel series which have really been able to explore the characters more fully. IMO, the only missteps have been Secret Wars, Ant-Man, and to a certain extent The Marvels. I would have liked to have a longer movie that had more time to explore the characters as I had been pretty invested in Monica and Carol's relationship, and was interested in seeing more time with Kamala and her family.
I tend to appreciate the stories that have time to wander in and out of the A plot a little more as we've seen the big action stuff and I want to see more time with the actual characters.
That's rich, considering how Age of Ultron was seen as a low point in the MCU upon release.
yeah, I found it amusing at her comment, especially considering her interest through Endgame. We enjoyed No Way Home, as well as Shang Chi, and the Marvels but not was "the draw" to keep us watching.
A lot of the issues came with just the sheer quantity of MCU product that was coming out. The studio was trying to churn out between three and four features a year, which is not something I believe they would have attempted pre-Disney, as well as satisfy Bob Iger's demand for a backlog of content for Disney+. That, alone, is going to result in diminishing of quality. Then throw in a pandemic.
The decision to cut back on the amount of content being produced can only be a good thing in the long run.
The decision to cut back on the amount of content being produced can only be a good thing in the long run.
Hm. I do feel The Marvels should've been longer, but I don't consider that a misstep, since it just means I really liked what we got and wanted more of it.
I agree, which is why I qualified my statement "to a certain extent". I think that it missed the opportunity to develop and expand upon the characters. I also liked Quantumania for what it was, but I feel that it missed the opportunity to really show Kang as a threat and felt that the ending really needed some kind of sacrifice for the main characters to show that.
Being “Woke” was first from the African American community, essentially being socially conscious. Here’s a good article on the history What is woke: How a Black movement watchword got co-opted in a culture war | Vox
It was when white PROGRESSIVES hijacked the term, to also encompass THEIR broader “enlightenment”, and have an arrogance, especially when they compare themselves to white conservatives.
Conservatives were successfully able to ridicule “wokeness” because it was superficial (in the same way views on sexuality have been exploited against people claiming to be conservative).
And I can personally see it – whites who proclaim wokeness seem to never actually LIVE in neighborhoods I have, and most definitely almost NEVER send their children to majority black schools like where my daughters have gone.
You guys have proven my point of white progressive colonization of the word -- "if white conservatives hate the term, then i will gladly take it on" -- ignoring the historical context and who it culturally belongs to.
Many people who claim to be “woke” have only gotten up just long enough to relieve themselves.
Yes, words change over time...i am surprised no one has mentioned how gay used to just mena happy (last heard in that way in the FLinstones theme song, having a "gay old time") to now being almost exclusively associated with sexuality/identity.
In regards to Marvel and Ike and wokeness – there was also an investor who was trying to get on the board that had a similar view to Ike . That guy was rejected, and for good reason --- we have examples of how wrong they were about minority films
Black Panther has made more money than every Marvel movie except the Avengers movies worldwide.
This according to ScreenRant Highest-Grossing MCU Movies At The Box Office, Ranked (screenrant.com)
And in fact , Domestically (US), Black Panther is actually THIRD, beat ONLY by Endgame and No Way Home. (And its sequel is 7th out of 33 in the US)
Source: Box office mojo = Franchise: Marvel Cinematic Universe - Box Office Mojo
And #2 as an MCU subfranchise = https://screenrant.com/every-mcu-franchise-ranked-by-box-office/
Now, the diversity, theoretically should bring new audiences in (which, for an economic conservative, is a good thing) --- how they market it/ public perception, is where it needs to get beyond “wokeness” and touch people in ways to get them excited, like how the Black Panther Super Bowl ad truly created the hype for the movie.
If there was any “anti-woke” attacks on Black Panther, they faded away.
But if perception that the production was more to fulfill a “quota” , like white progressives tend to have, due to perceived quality of a film (with box office being a “proof” of that), then it hurts Marvel (or any other production).
I would have liked to have seen Crestin over the Russo brothers…we have had enough “white guys” in charge, and can use more diverse filmmaking. (Also, I think the Russo brothers really did NOT understand Captain America the way Joe Johnston did, and didn’t really like CA’s treatment in parts).
It was when white PROGRESSIVES hijacked the term, to also encompass THEIR broader “enlightenment”, and have an arrogance, especially when they compare themselves to white conservatives.
Conservatives were successfully able to ridicule “wokeness” because it was superficial (in the same way views on sexuality have been exploited against people claiming to be conservative).
And I can personally see it – whites who proclaim wokeness seem to never actually LIVE in neighborhoods I have, and most definitely almost NEVER send their children to majority black schools like where my daughters have gone.
You guys have proven my point of white progressive colonization of the word -- "if white conservatives hate the term, then i will gladly take it on" -- ignoring the historical context and who it culturally belongs to.
Many people who claim to be “woke” have only gotten up just long enough to relieve themselves.
Yes, words change over time...i am surprised no one has mentioned how gay used to just mena happy (last heard in that way in the FLinstones theme song, having a "gay old time") to now being almost exclusively associated with sexuality/identity.
In regards to Marvel and Ike and wokeness – there was also an investor who was trying to get on the board that had a similar view to Ike . That guy was rejected, and for good reason --- we have examples of how wrong they were about minority films
Black Panther has made more money than every Marvel movie except the Avengers movies worldwide.
This according to ScreenRant Highest-Grossing MCU Movies At The Box Office, Ranked (screenrant.com)
And in fact , Domestically (US), Black Panther is actually THIRD, beat ONLY by Endgame and No Way Home. (And its sequel is 7th out of 33 in the US)
Source: Box office mojo = Franchise: Marvel Cinematic Universe - Box Office Mojo
And #2 as an MCU subfranchise = https://screenrant.com/every-mcu-franchise-ranked-by-box-office/
Now, the diversity, theoretically should bring new audiences in (which, for an economic conservative, is a good thing) --- how they market it/ public perception, is where it needs to get beyond “wokeness” and touch people in ways to get them excited, like how the Black Panther Super Bowl ad truly created the hype for the movie.
If there was any “anti-woke” attacks on Black Panther, they faded away.
But if perception that the production was more to fulfill a “quota” , like white progressives tend to have, due to perceived quality of a film (with box office being a “proof” of that), then it hurts Marvel (or any other production).
I would have liked to have seen Crestin over the Russo brothers…we have had enough “white guys” in charge, and can use more diverse filmmaking. (Also, I think the Russo brothers really did NOT understand Captain America the way Joe Johnston did, and didn’t really like CA’s treatment in parts).
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I think we've had that debate before. I submit that there was a sacrifice, because Janet sacrificed her marriage and decades of her life by trapping herself in the Quantum Realm to stop Kang's escape. I think that was sufficient to illustrate the magnitude of his threat, because good storytelling is about getting us to identify with characters and feel what they feel, and she felt his threat was so great that she had to do whatever it took to stop him.
Sacrifice doesn't have to mean a character dies; that's a blunt instrument, all too often used to generate shock value as a substitute for coming up with something deeper or more meaningful. A character having to live with the consequences of their actions can be more potent than the character's death. And since Hank believed Janet was dead all those decades, we already had the equivalent of the impact a character death would cause.
I will start a new topic. Which XMen will the MCU use when they finally join the MCU? Patrick Stewart's group? James McAvoy's group? Or a third/new group? (Hopefully). However, if it's a new group how would that work with Jackman's Wolverine is part of the MCU now.
I actually just started an entire thread on the subject that asks that and other questions about mutants and the MCU less than an hour ago.
Spoilers - Mutants and the MCU-- What's Next? (Full Spoilers!)
Pretty much what it says in the title. We're seeing the introduction of mutants into the MCU on multiple levels. Both on the main Earth Prime/616/Sacred Timeline, and through multiversal shenanigans in three different Marvel productions. On the Earth of the MCU's main narrative, we have Kamala...
www.trekbbs.com
Agreed.
I avoided your thread because it said Spoilers. But now, it seems there is already a spoiler about Deadpool here.I actually just started an entire thread on the subject that asks that and other questions about mutants and the MCU less than an hour ago.
Spoilers - Mutants and the MCU-- What's Next? (Full Spoilers!)
Pretty much what it says in the title. We're seeing the introduction of mutants into the MCU on multiple levels. Both on the main Earth Prime/616/Sacred Timeline, and through multiversal shenanigans in three different Marvel productions. On the Earth of the MCU's main narrative, we have Kamala...
I am hoping that the MCU does its own thing with the X-Men and creates a new team incorporating classic and newer mutants.
When I first coded it as a spoiler thread, I thought my OP was going to have a lot more Deadpool and Wolverine spoilers in it, but I wound only including mild spoilers from the movie. The oldest actual spoiler in the OP would be from The Marvels regarding its post credit scene.
I mention that the scene with Hank McCoy points to a future story direction with the original Fox X-Men team. Secret Wars will be released in 2026, so an X-Men appearance would still be in line with the X-Men timeline as established in Logan.
Post Secret Wars, I agree with you about the MCU doing its own thing.
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On a very different note, I'm really looking forward to the Marvels Assembled episode for Deadpool & Wolverine and I really hope it follows She-Hulk's footsteps in breaking the fourth wall in its narrative.
Well put and quite true. As you point out, when the term was co-opted by a larger body of white progressives, particularly of the media and professional political class, they often took (and continue to take) the centuries-long, targeted plight of those of African descent, pushing it to the back of the line (and quite conscious of the implications of that act), yet use said plight to make astoundingly ignorant false equivalencies with the issues of other groups, as if the other groups endured the global level of wholesale physical and psychological control and abuse throughout time. More egregious, is the act some put on, claiming offense as if they have experienced even a particle of that, or understand the psychological, destruction of racial autonomy that kind of planned, taught, and unceasing execution such treatment has caused. Their lack of self-awareness keeps this arrogant co-opting of the "woke" term and its sociopolitical use a implement of choice.
Oh, that is an undeniable, continuing situation. Among their number are the same occupants of the Ivory Throne who make obtuse pronouncements of how much they stand in solidarity with black people, but never honestly attempt to understand or share the burden, but they certainly waste no time claiming "offense" on the behalf of black people, or speaking as if they know the burdensome lens through which black people see and must adjust their daily lives.
True.
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