Well said.
What is your personal head canon?
- Thread starter AmandaSmith
- Start date
Nope.
@HotRod states it better, but I'll take a stab at it. TOS is far and way "my Trek." It is the Trek I most closely connect with, the one I grew up watching on VHS, the things that I memorized, and the inconsistencies that I worked within. It has characters I want to know more about, from Pike to Yeoman Smith, to M'Benga.
Disconnecting takes a little bit of the specialness away from SNW to me. Is it as entertaining? Yes, by a long shot as far as Trek goes. But, that connection is what adds the frosting on top.
Going to aim for the middle road on this, if I can. Some changes in the timeline (TOS is now TOS remastered, thanks to Enterprise, all the visual changes that come with that), but still hoping that SNW still finds its way to TOS(r) territory eventual.
Fools errand, I know, but I've got a couple of years to get disappointed.
Fools errand, I know, but I've got a couple of years to get disappointed.
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I can get inspired by any work of fiction provided it’s good enough… the need to somehow marry up our world and the world of Star Trek is odd and it’s going to get increasingly silly as the decades roll on.
It’s a fictional universe. Let it be that.
This is largely where I fall. I can sound like an absolute canon extremist but that's not REALLY the case. Small changes are perfectly fine, positive even. I very much enjoy TOS-R. To me, that is the definitive version of TOS. I'm ok with kind of ignoring some specific dialogue in TOS.
I'm ok with "visual updates", but not quite as extreme as we get now. When I think of a "visual update", I think of something similar to TOS-R... it's the same thing in spirit and takes great pains to retain the look, while... updating it. I think something similar could have been done with the new Star Treks.
Like, John Eaves' concept Enterprise was totally cool.
A slightly different render, but of Eaves' concept. Would "modern audiences" look at this and be like "eww no 60's not watching that."? Meanwhile, a fan like me says "Oh cool it's the Enterprise!", even though it's not EXACTLY the one from the 60's... it's visually updated.
I understand things like the interiors and such a bit more, but I think you can also get something MUCH closer to TOS while still looking modern enough. My rule of thumb for a visual update is keep the shapes and color scheme the same, or as close as is possible. Add more detail within that.
For say the TOS bridge, make it the same shape. Whatever, widen it up/enlarge it a bit for set/filming reasons. But basically, same shape. The big black circle along the wall where the controls are? Make it one big, sleek touch screen display that has an interface with the TOS color scheme. Make the screens above active, displaying all kinds of stuff. I can compromise a bit on the viewscreen... I think it's TOO big in SNW, but I could be ok with something kind of in between TOS and SNW. I'll always hate the window, though.
It's quite literally the Enterprise as depicted in Discovery, only with straight pylons and a two-pronged navigational deflector dish. That's the only difference.
It's total headcanon territory, but it just seemed like an opportunity to accept some visual changes because of Enterprise, seeing as TOS remastered happened the year after the show ended. And of course, off the back of In a mirror, Darkly and the beautifully rendered USS Defiant.This is largely where I fall. I can sound like an absolute canon extremist but that's not REALLY the case. Small changes are perfectly fine, positive even. I very much enjoy TOS-R. To me, that is the definitive version of TOS. I'm ok with kind of ignoring some specific dialogue in TOS.
I'm ok with "visual updates", but not quite as extreme as we get now. When I think of a "visual update", I think of something similar to TOS-R... it's the same thing in spirit and takes great pains to retain the look, while... updating it. I think something similar could have been done with the new Star Treks.
Like, John Eaves' concept Enterprise was totally cool.
A slightly different render, but of Eaves' concept. Would "modern audiences" look at this and be like "eww no 60's not watching that."? Meanwhile, a fan like me says "Oh cool it's the Enterprise!", even though it's not EXACTLY the one from the 60's... it's visually updated.
I understand things like the interiors and such a bit more, but I think you can also get something MUCH closer to TOS while still looking modern enough. My rule of thumb for a visual update is keep the shapes and color scheme the same, or as close as is possible. Add more detail within that.
For say the TOS bridge, make it the same shape. Whatever, widen it up/enlarge it a bit for set/filming reasons. But basically, same shape. The big black circle along the wall where the controls are? Make it one big, sleek touch screen display that has an interface with the TOS color scheme. Make the screens above active, displaying all kinds of stuff. I can compromise a bit on the viewscreen... I think it's TOO big in SNW, but I could be ok with something kind of in between TOS and SNW. I'll always hate the window, though.
In regards to the viewscreen, I have noted that many episodes have shown that it's functionally redundant apart from a much smaller part that is regularly used. So in another attempt at headcanon, I can assume that future ships and refits just dispensed with the larger window.
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What's incredibly frustrating is some posters here want to remove all nuance from the equation. Someone already went 5 MPH over the speed limit and you were fine with it, so you have no right to complain about going 50 MPH over etc. Enough with the "so what you're saying is_____" card.
Think back to the backlash to ENT. Don't be suddenly shocked that something 100X as impactful as anything Berman and Braga would ever have conceived of generates a fan backlash. Even with this BBS' legacy fan drop off and NuTrek survivorship bias.
TOS-R by and large worked despite from shoddy and cheap CGI. Even going with something like TOS was only meant to be seen at 360i, so let's add far more detail to the bridge etc would have worked. Instead DISCOVERY and especially SNW went with the we won't even bother to try besides some retro mid-century modernist accents in the production design. And that doesn't even cover the tonal differences and how SNW is far more "present day" than TOS was for the 60s.
Think back to the backlash to ENT. Don't be suddenly shocked that something 100X as impactful as anything Berman and Braga would ever have conceived of generates a fan backlash. Even with this BBS' legacy fan drop off and NuTrek survivorship bias.
TOS-R by and large worked despite from shoddy and cheap CGI. Even going with something like TOS was only meant to be seen at 360i, so let's add far more detail to the bridge etc would have worked. Instead DISCOVERY and especially SNW went with the we won't even bother to try besides some retro mid-century modernist accents in the production design. And that doesn't even cover the tonal differences and how SNW is far more "present day" than TOS was for the 60s.
I think it's a lot about vibes.
I really love SNW. It's on paper also really difficult to reconcile with TOS, as so many details directly contradict or don't mesh with each other.
However - the vibe is correct. It absolutely feels like a modern take on TOS. And thus I have no problem at all to reconcile the parts that DO fit with each other, as they mostly feel(!) like they take place in the same universe.
PIC on the other hand got all the nitty gritty nitpick stuff right. It got the same ships, props, effects, characters, references. All the details lines up. However the vibe is all fucked. It doesn't feel like the TNG universe, it feels like a shithole future from a sy-fy original movie with cheap, evil aliens and ridiculous stereotype characters. Thus I have a much harder time reconciling it with the rest of Star Trek, even though technically it fits much better to "canon".
I really love SNW. It's on paper also really difficult to reconcile with TOS, as so many details directly contradict or don't mesh with each other.
However - the vibe is correct. It absolutely feels like a modern take on TOS. And thus I have no problem at all to reconcile the parts that DO fit with each other, as they mostly feel(!) like they take place in the same universe.
PIC on the other hand got all the nitty gritty nitpick stuff right. It got the same ships, props, effects, characters, references. All the details lines up. However the vibe is all fucked. It doesn't feel like the TNG universe, it feels like a shithole future from a sy-fy original movie with cheap, evil aliens and ridiculous stereotype characters. Thus I have a much harder time reconciling it with the rest of Star Trek, even though technically it fits much better to "canon".
The differences are fairly subtle, but are clear as day to me. The color is different, the neck of Donnie is shorter and pushed a bit more forward. The dimensions are almost all just slightly different.
When it's all said and done, the Enterprise isn't really the hill i'll die on because that could potentially fall under "close enough", it's more just annoying because they had it even closer and just arbitrarily changed it. Hell, this version even makes it into DSC on a computer screen.
I think if they just did the straight nacelles and paint job, i'd probably be fine just ignoring the rest.
You know I completely forgot about that.
Heh, it would be FANTASTIC if they picked up on this little bit and have a battle where the bridge window gets blown out.
This is exactly why it's impossible to actually please the "fans" as a monolithic bloc.
I'm somewhat flipped here. SNW is cool. It doesn't work with TOS in even the slightest degree, not even just visuals but lore and characters as well. Yeah, it DOES feel like... a modern reboot of TOS. If THAT is what Paramount was treating it as, i'd be a bit more on board. SNW does feel like Star Trek... sort of. It doesn't feel like it's part of the same world.
PIC... was the first time in modern Trek that I actually felt like I was watching Star Trek, updated for a "modern audience". Yes, it had a different feel than 90's Trek, but it very much felt like the same world. THAT is exactly what I want. I don't just want the same old thing over and over again. I want new stories, new "vibes", in the same world. PIC did exactly that, and it was fantastic.
Can anyone name other times the vibe didn't line up?
Because that's been my Trek experience for 30+ years as a fan and aware of such things. Granted 10 year old me was less discerning, but the point remains. If we are putting so much in to "feel" (fascinating if so, given the common pushback on emotional characters in this franchise) then are there other examples of the lack of the same vibe?
For me, it's TOS to TMP to TWOK. Three different vibes.
Because that's been my Trek experience for 30+ years as a fan and aware of such things. Granted 10 year old me was less discerning, but the point remains. If we are putting so much in to "feel" (fascinating if so, given the common pushback on emotional characters in this franchise) then are there other examples of the lack of the same vibe?
For me, it's TOS to TMP to TWOK. Three different vibes.
I don't think the vibe of either show is where I'd want it to be, but man I'm agreeing with you 100% on Picard. The nastiness of it is even more jarring due to how much work the production team put in to make it look authentic.
What's hard with PICARD is are you talking about season 1 or season 3?
TOS has made it over the 1990s hump of being a little dated and corny to now being (mostly) timeless. SNW will likely date far more quickly as its "present day-ism" is more manufactured off of an internet bubble and pop culture trends already on the way out.
Season 3 at least felt more like the natural evolution from late DS9 and late ENT.
EAS explores this a bit... they went to all the trouble to get even season 1 stuff mostly right, but the too many cooks in the kitchen drag the plot in far too many directions.
Yeah, no. It's literally the "Discoprise" with straight pylons and a different dish.
As for the colour, the Enterprise is far more grey than people think, it's just that they choose to light it in a way that makes it look far more metallic. When shown in more direct light, her true colour can be much more easily seen.
I've even gone to painstaking efforts to reproduce the look in my model work.
This final pic shows how close in colour the Discoprise is to the TOS version.
I think some fans totally do. Some folks just like hating on stuff and base their entire identities on it.
Yep. We either come up with our own headcanon to make it fit or we adopt an author's headcanon to make it fit. This has been happening with Star Trek fandom since at least the 70s.
How many siblings does Spock have? None, a half brother, or a half brother and an adoptive sister? Did one of his ancestors marry a human female, or was it his father? Are Spock's parents alive or dead? Do Trills have bumpy foreheads or spots like that lady in "The Perfect Mate"? Do the Trill symbiotes totally take over a person's consciousness like in "The Host" or is it a blending of personalities, like we saw in DS9?
And heck, don't even get me started on all the retcons ENT introduced into the mix...
Well, the feel of that era was well established in TOS, sure (which I think is what you meant), but it being "the 2260s era" was largely established in the tie-in books like The Star Trek Chronology after TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" gave an age for McCoy and TNG: "The Neutral Zone" established the current year as 2364. So even the years we commonly accept as "the TOS era" are a retcon introduced 20+ years into the franchise.
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Regarding vibes for the various shows, I'll try to put my feelings into words.
Reruns of TOS, the TOS movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT... I was a fan from Day 1 of TNG premiering. From 8 years old until about a month before I turned 26, I loved having something new of the franchise just around the corner. The world of STAR TREK was like a second home to me. It felt like a place where I belonged. (Particularly DS9, as I've mentioned my reasoning for it in the past.) It was even a gateway for me to get into more scifi. (In a very real way, Data IS my hero, because his character was the very reason I became a Trekkie and a science fiction fan in general.) The shows are taking place in the same universe, and to me, the vibe and the feeling is the same. The current era, for the most part, feels the same. Despite the more... current this production era is. ("Current': I don't have another word that fits properly. It's the best I can come up with without using words like darker, grittier, more plot heavy, etc. Not saying any of those things are bad by definition, but I know many would look at those words and think, "This guy doesn't like that kind of stuff.") The two shows of the current era that don't have the same vibe as the rest are DISCO and PICARD. They feel like STAR TREK but they don't have the vibe of STAR TREK.
I know that last sentence must sound confusing, so I will try to elaborate. The universe feels like it should, but the people seem... off. Not sure I can pinpoint exactly why. In the case of PICARD, the language and expression feels too 21st century. (Seven: "It makes me feel seen." The sentiment is excellent, but it just dates the dialogue even more than the previous era.) I miss the more theatric, stageplay style of how they were. I know that is something that is basically gone from tv and movies in general now, but there was a feeling of them being larger than life when on screen. The urge to explore is also greatly lessened. (Having said that, season 3 was very, very good because it accomplished precisely what it set out to do... give a better sendoff to the TNG crew than NEMESIS. It was literally a 10 hour movie, right down to the musical cues.) DISCO had the same problems, but it was amplified by being more about telling than showing how the characters were connected and what they meant to each other. But the universe they are in feels like STAR TREK because a lot of the spirit was there... everyone coming together for a common cause, the wish to do the right thing against all odds, risking yourself to help others.
LDS, SNW, and PRODIGY... the feeling AND vibe are both there. Mainly because the spirit of exploration is there. I think in a nutshell, that's the primary motivation. (One can make the argument that there wasn't much exploration in DS9, but they would be dead wrong. There was a great deal of exploration within for everyone there. DISCO and PICARD did do some of that, but I feel it was more... cursory in comparison to DS9.)
Each franchise or series has their own world and feels different when you watch or immerse yourself in it. FARSCAPE, DOCTOR WHO, BABYLON 5, STARGATE, BSG, THE X-FILES, SUPERNATURAL, etc... they each have their own feeling and vibe that makes it theirs. STAR TREK is no different in that regard.
(I'm not sure if I was completely clear in all of that. I can try to elaborate more, if needed.)
Nice job on the model work!Yeah, no. It's literally the "Discoprise" with straight pylons and a different dish.
As for the colour, the Enterprise is far more grey than people think, it's just that they choose to light it in a way that makes it look far more metallic. When shown in more direct light, her true colour can be much more easily seen.
I've even gone to painstaking efforts to reproduce the look in my model work.
This final pic shows how close in colour the Discoprise is to the TOS version.
I have headcanon. I probably have a headcanon bigger than the canon canon (whatever that exactly is). For example:
Unfilmed Scene from Star Trek IV:
Kirk's apartment:
McCoy (raising a glass of Romulan Ale): "congratulations, Jim. You saved Earth from the Whale Probe and got a new Enterprise. You're amazing!"
Kirk: "Thank you Bones. *clinks glasses, sips ale* Still, I can't shake this feeling I forgot something..."
cut to --
interior Bird of Prey in the bottom of the sea, Maltz knocking the locked door "Hey, anybody there? Hello?"
Unfilmed Scene from Star Trek IV:
Kirk's apartment:
McCoy (raising a glass of Romulan Ale): "congratulations, Jim. You saved Earth from the Whale Probe and got a new Enterprise. You're amazing!"
Kirk: "Thank you Bones. *clinks glasses, sips ale* Still, I can't shake this feeling I forgot something..."
cut to --
interior Bird of Prey in the bottom of the sea, Maltz knocking the locked door "Hey, anybody there? Hello?"
By looking into fate of Maltz, I just learned that he was portrayed by John Larroquette.
Thank you for elaborating. I will do my best to share why I feel so differently (there's those evil feelings again
).I grew up with VHS of TOS and TAS and such. To me, the feel of the universe was one that was set more by the crew than necessarily other production aspects. And, because I watched things like "The Cage" or "Where No Man Has Gone Before" alongside "Balance of Terror" or "Trouble with Tribbles" I didn't have an issue with the transitions that often seem out of step to others. For me, the vibe was something that could vary from crew to crew, and didn't always feel like the same universe.
Ostensibly, the most glaring vibe was during the Berman era, and TNG through ENT definitely had that same vibe, though perhaps not always the same feel, especially with DS9. But, the flip side is that those things didn't feel like they fit perfectly in with TOS. Even "Trials and Tribble-ations" while very much a fun episode and one I appreciate the story and tone of, doesn't quite vibe the same.
So, for me this more contemporary era of Trek doesn't vibe the same, but that's par for the course for me. TNG didn't vibe with TOS, and even TOS films didn't vibe with TOS, not perfectly. To me, the greater vibe of contemporary projects, starting with ST 09, is the idea of building a family, rather than having one from the get go. TOS kind of has that a little with "Where No Man..." since we see the initial team, and then it changes. Though, I understand that if one didn't start with that episode in their TOS journey they would not feel that vibe the same way, and more or less have the TOS crew as standing by Man Trap or Corbomite.
The contemporary is one that resonates with me with the theme of found family. It's a journey that doesn't take family for granted, but works to build it up, successfully and unsuccessfully. While TOS is the place I feel like I belong, newer shows engage me in the vibe, or personal values, because of that journey aspect.
And I guess that's the difference in vibe. I don't look to the consistent world building because I didn't always have that. I had characters that I found value in and engagement with and that's the vibe I want.
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