I'm not sure you're quite getting what I mean. they're not shown as stupid but that was never my issue. they're shown as brutal killers without much redeeming value
Ways that SNW actually improved TOS
- Thread starter Cr0sis21
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I'm not sure you're quite getting what I mean. they're not shown as stupid but that was never my issue. they're shown as brutal killers without much redeeming value
That's pretty much how the Jem'Hadar were portrayed too at the beginning. They even doubled down on it by having Odo realize nothing he did would stop that infant Jem'Hadar from being a killing machine.
It wasn't until Hippocratic Oath we even saw a glimmer of pathos in them.
So, I'm willing to give SNW room to tell a more nuanced story.
Edit: And really, even by the end the Jem'Hadar were still mostly murderous monsters with only a few redeeming individuals. They're one of the few villains that never really lost their edge.
They're not much better in Arena. They're only justification is "we repelled invaders" never mind that they lured the Enterprise in to a trap, and mimicked a Cestus III call to do so.
What are we shown that's redeeming in Areana again? All of it is supposition from our heroes. Even the Metrons note that Kirk's mercy would not have been given to him by his opponent if the role was reversed.
My take is that it's more like natural predator/prey relationship. When the snake eats a mouse, is it a monster? No, it's just surviving to be able to reproduce. But obviously the mice will hate snakes!
I suspect that because the Gorn aren't an ongoing concern for the Federation and, indeed, apparently some join Starfleet, that we'll see some sort of accommodation. Some way for them to survive without killing hominoids!
Seriously, a realistic portrayal of humans would make us look like monsters!!
Going for a slow burn reveal, IMO.
Just like TOS did.
Bombing Cestus III from orbit with no warning.
Impersonating a Starfleet flag officer over coms to lure the Enterprise in to destroy them
Not even trying to communicate with Kirk during the battle.
But merciful
They knew how to rock a gornkini.
And also. TOS S1 Arena shows the Gorn understood Federation language and could determine the Outpost was not military; yet attacked anyway instead of trying a diplomatic approach (IE inform the Federation Cestus Iii was in Gorn territory and claimed by the Gorn. Plus they further ignored a surrender attempt made by the base who again informed them there were children on the Outpost. The Gorn ruthlessly slaughtered everyone and then lured in a Federation military vessel to test its capabilities.
They weren't in any way just a 'misunderstood alien race' that saw no recourse but to defend itself in the face of a military invasion of ther territory.
Life isn't that simplistically black and white. Just because a civilization does bad things doesn't mean they're pure irredeemable evil. Japan launched a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, but now they're one of America's staunchest political allies and the source of a great deal of our beloved pop culture. The Klingons nearly conquered the Federation in the 2250s, but became their allies a century later. The Vulcans and Andorians were at war for centuries but ended up co-founding the Federation.
The thing is, people often strike out because they feel threatened and afraid. And the people they strike out at often mistake that for aggression. So sometimes both sides in a conflict think they're the ones defending against the other side's aggression. That's basically what happened in the Cold War, as I learned in college. Russia had a long, long history of being invaded and conquered, and the Soviet Union was basically surrounded on all sides by enemies or rivals (counting the US across the North Pole). So the USSR felt it had to build up its military and nuclear arsenal to defend itself against another invasion. But Europe and the United States had a history of engaging in imperialism and conquest, so we saw the USSR's military buildup and assumed it was intended as aggressive, so we built up our arsenal and nuclear stockpile in perceived self-defense. And they saw our buildup and assumed we planned to invade them, so they built up an even larger arsenal in self-defense, and so on in a vicious cycle.
That's why the only way to end that kind of conflict is to take a chance on peace, to try to break the cycle, as Kirk did. Pointing fingers of blame at the other side is just an excuse to keep fighting. It's not a solution.
I don't take it so black and white, but it was hardly the action of a innocent species that is now being claimed around the Gorn due to SNW treating them as "monsters." There is clearly a lot of shades of grade in there, as with most political problems, but the Gorn don't come out looking like great beings at the end of Arena, and it's fascinating to watch the twist around to say "Oh, the Gorn did nothing wrong."
This has nothing to do with the Gorn in "Arena."
People seem to conflate the episode with Gene Coon stories like "Errand of Mercy" and "Devil in the Dark." There's no suggestion of potential rapprochment with the Gorn. Oh, they might think they have a valid territorial claim? That's nice. The story is about Kirk choosing humane values, not about the beginning of a peace process.
The Metron, who certainly knew, said that the Gorn would not have let Kirk live. Pretty black-and-white.
We've given peace a chance, now we have the situation in Ukraine to deal with.
Pike's Peak
Actually i'll a rescind my earlier opinion of "it doesn't", with one thing. I do like how Kirk acknowledges Carol Marcus, her pregnancy, and actually seems to... care. For far too long it really felt like Kirk was just an absolute deadbeat who caught Carol in a sexual drive by and ran off but... now it seems like Kirk actually DID care and there were just circumstances that caused the issue.
It adds a bit more to "Generations", with Kirk's ponderance of how Sulu found time for a family... it makes alot of sense, Kirk was just way too busy doing Starfleet stuff to be bogged down by a wife and kids.
Knowing there was at least some attempt at a relationship makes David's loss actually like, emotional rather than "Kirk's son randomly appears from nowhere, dies".
It adds a bit more to "Generations", with Kirk's ponderance of how Sulu found time for a family... it makes alot of sense, Kirk was just way too busy doing Starfleet stuff to be bogged down by a wife and kids.
Knowing there was at least some attempt at a relationship makes David's loss actually like, emotional rather than "Kirk's son randomly appears from nowhere, dies".
What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. ~Morticia Addams
The TAS hologram room is now canon officially, since the entire show is the TOS cast playing the newest Captain Pike DLC / interactive episode. The video game music counter sealed the deal for me. Its in-universe entertainment.
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