What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[ananta]

Yeah, part of the problem is that the early seasons of TNG treated the PD like a straitjacket, to the point where the crew sometimes seemed perfectly willing to let cultures suffer and die.

That happened right up to the final season actually. “Homeward” is the most egregious example, an episode that makes my blood boil, right up there with “Tuvix”. They could have saved the Boraalans (?) but something-something Prime Directive. Picard gives a little moralising speech and they have a moment of silence as the planet dies. It’s so uncomfortable to watch. Then we’re expected to see Worf’s brother as a kind of villain for actually saving them. At least the crew and Worf paint him that way. Actually, Nikolai is the only character I like in that episode.

 

[Skipper]

Hand-to-hand fights and shootouts after TOS and before Nu-Trek were bad. Really Bad.

The fight scenes in TOS were fun. Who doesn't love Kirk-Fu!?! I would never get tired of seeing them!

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Combat in nu-Trek? Always done with competence.

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Everything in between? Sometimes it was so embarrassing you wondered why they even tried at all.

For example, the fight at the end od Code of Honor. I know it was a different era but, geez, the final duel is bad. The choreography is bad. There's no tension, it's poorly shot, the stuntwomen are so obvious it's embarrassing. It's slow. Deadly slow. I know that someone will say "But you can't judge it with today's criteria" but I remember very well that the first time I saw it, more than 30 years ago, I thought "What is this rubbish???" We have Tasha Yar, who is supposed to be this super tough martial arts expert who moves uncoordinated and slow like a first grader trying to do a dance she doesn't remember.

For all the episode they raised the viewer's expectations by repeatedly explaining what an incredible fighter Tasha is, that NO ONE can have a chance fighting against her, that she is a master of all known and unknown martial arts, a perfect and unstoppable killing machine. You live only because she allows it. In the end we expect a fight from which even Cynthia Rothrock will have to take notes. And then?

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It would have been more dignified to just have a sign on the screen for 5 minutes saying "Now imagine a cool fight. Tasha wins".
Why has there never been decent hand-to-hand combat in TNG? Or VOY? OR DS9? (I can't talk for ENT-I didn't watch all the episodes. Maybe in some of the ones I missed there is a Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris level fight. Maybe!)

 

[ananta]

It would have been more dignified to just have a sign on the screen for 5 minutes saying "Now imagine a cool fight. Tasha wins".

You’re right, it’s so SO bad. Their movements are so lethargic and half assed. You can tell they’ve probably had to do multiple takes and the actresses are just tired—and boy does it show. Everything about that episode is abysmal.

Why has there never been decent hand-to-hand combat in TNG? Or VOY? OR DS9? (I can't talk for ENT-I didn't watch all the episodes. Maybe in some of the ones I missed there is a Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris level fight. Maybe!)

DS9 had some impressive fight scenes, I’m thinking the climax of “Way of the Warrior”. Sisko was particularly badass in fight scenes. I still chuckle though each time I see someone do the double-hand punch ala Kirk. I think Kira does it several times. Why that’s a thing in Trek I have no idea.

Yet a few episodes later we had “To the Death” which had some really terrible fight scenes. I guess that was hurt by the fact they obviously cut so much footage. It’s hard to even follow what’s going on because the editing is poor and verging on incoherent.

 

[Skipper]

DS9 had some impressive fight scenes, I’m thinking the climax of “Way of the Warrior”. Sisko was particularly badass in fight scenes.

I forgot it! Thanks!

I still chuckle though each time I see someone do the double-hand punch ala Kirk. I think Kira does it several times. Why that’s a thing in Trek I have no idea.

They teach it in the Academy

 

[Shawnster]

You’re right, it’s so SO bad. Their movements are so lethargic and half assed. You can tell they’ve probably had to do multiple takes and the actresses are just tired—and boy does it show. Everything about that episode is abysmal.

Fighting on playground monkey bars didn't help.

 

[Farscape One]

You’re right, it’s so SO bad. Their movements are so lethargic and half assed. You can tell they’ve probably had to do multiple takes and the actresses are just tired—and boy does it show. Everything about that episode is abysmal.



DS9 had some impressive fight scenes, I’m thinking the climax of “Way of the Warrior”. Sisko was particularly badass in fight scenes. I still chuckle though each time I see someone do the double-hand punch ala Kirk. I think Kira does it several times. Why that’s a thing in Trek I have no idea.

Yet a few episodes later we had “To the Death” which had some really terrible fight scenes. I guess that was hurt by the fact they obviously cut so much footage. It’s hard to even follow what’s going on because the editing is poor and verging on incoherent.

If I remember correctly, "TO THE DEATH" was actually forced to edit down the fights at the end because it was deemed too violent. (Which would explain why the episode was less than the usual 44 minutes and 40-50 seconds run time, from start to end, not counting end credits.)

 

[ananta]

If I remember correctly, "TO THE DEATH" was actually forced to edit down the fights at the end because it was deemed too violent. (Which would explain why the episode was less than the usual 44 minutes and 40-50 seconds run time, from start to end, not counting end credits.)

I wonder if it has to do with the fact they were fighting with knives and blades, which is a lot grittier and less fantastical than Trek’s usual phaser fights. The action scenes and end of that episode were so jarringly abrupt, you can sense there’s a lot missing.

 

[Farscape One]

I wonder if it has to do with the fact they were fighting with knives and blades, which is a lot grittier and less fantastical than Trek’s usual phaser fights. The action scenes and end of that episode were so jarringly abrupt, you can sense there’s a lot missing.

Very likely. As far as I know, it's the only episode in the franchise that was edited down due to being too violent.

(I guess LeVar Burton was too effective a director. He always was one of the best of the actor-directors of the franchise.)

 

[Skipper]

I wonder if it has to do with the fact they were fighting with knives and blades, which is a lot grittier and less fantastical than Trek’s usual phaser fights. The action scenes and end of that episode were so jarringly abrupt, you can sense there’s a lot missing.

Later I'll write something about how pre-nuTrek phaser fights SUCK!

 

[BK613]

Fighting on playground monkey bars didn't help.

A friend of mine described that set once as 'what you'd get if monkey bars had a baby with a stripper pole.'

 

[Lord Garth]

I doubt this is controversial: but I consider the best Phaser Fights in Star Trek to be from, in release order:

"Rocks and Shoals" (DS9)
"The Siege of AR-558" (DS9)
"What's Past Is Prologue" (DSC)

 

[Cr0sis21]

I don't know how Controversial this is, but...

DS9' Ferengi episodes are a hell of a lot better than they're stereotyped as. They mostly get that reputation from the god-awful "Profit and Lace" and the wet fart that is "The Emperor's New Cloak".

 

[Tallguy]

I don't know how Controversial this is, but...

DS9' Ferengi episodes are a hell of a lot better than they're stereotyped as. They mostly get that reputation from the god-awful "Profit and Lace" and the wet fart that is "The Emperor's New Cloak".

I'll counter that and say that "Profit and Lace" is not that much worse than the average Ferengi episode. More specifically not that much worse than your average Nagus episode.

Profit and Loss is an exception to the rule.

The flowchart from good / great to terrible: Quark episode -> Ferengi episode -> Nagus episode.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I'll counter that and say that "Profit and Lace" is not that much worse than the average Ferengi episode. More specifically not that much worse than your average Nagus episode.

Profit and Loss is an exception to the rule.

The flowchart from good / great to terrible: Quark episode -> Ferengi episode -> Nagus episode.

I think most of them are actually pretty great. If I were to order them:
Business as Usual
Body Parts
Bar Association
Magnificent Ferengi
Little Green Men
Rules of Acquisition
Family Business
Ferengi Love Songs
Prophet Motive
The Nagus

All of those are good to great, I think. Only Profit and Lace and Emperor's New Cloak fall short. Way, way short.

 

[Farscape One]

I don't know how Controversial this is, but...

DS9' Ferengi episodes are a hell of a lot better than they're stereotyped as. They mostly get that reputation from the god-awful "Profit and Lace" and the wet fart that is "The Emperor's New Cloak".

Very true. Compare DS9's Ferengi episodes to TNG, VOY, and ENT.

VOY - "FALSE PROFITS" and "INSIDE MAN"... both terrible.

ENT - "ACQUISITION"... abysmal.

TNG - most were bad, but a couple were okay. ("The Battle" was decent, and "Peak Performance" was superb, though that was merely an appearance as the end villain, not the main part of the story... very little of them were seen, which worked here.)

DS9 did FAR better with their Ferengi episodes. Huge credit to Ira Steven Behr (who wrote or co-wrote nearly all of the Ferengi centered episodes) and Armin Shimerman for accomplishing this.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Most of the time, I found the Ferengi to be more amusing than threatening. The only characters that consistently made me laugh more, was John deLancie's version of Q.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Very true. Compare DS9's Ferengi episodes to TNG, VOY, and ENT.

VOY - "FALSE PROFITS" and "INSIDE MAN"... both terrible.

ENT - "ACQUISITION"... abysmal.

TNG - most were bad, but a couple were okay. ("The Battle" was decent, and "Peak Performance" was superb, though that was merely an appearance as the end villain, not the main part of the story... very little of them were seen, which worked here.)

DS9 did FAR better with their Ferengi episodes. Huge credit to Ira Steven Behr (who wrote or co-wrote nearly all of the Ferengi centered episodes) and Armin Shimerman for accomplishing this.

Yeah, Ira Behr is to the Ferengi what Ron Moore is to Klingons and Dorothy Fontana to Vulcans.

I think the big difference between DS9 and everyone else is that in DS9, the Ferengi were treated like they had an actual culture and reasons for what they did beyond just one-note "Profit, profit, profit!"

 

[Farscape One]

Yeah, Ira Behr is to the Ferengi what Ron Moore is to Klingons and Dorothy Fontana to Vulcans.

I think the big difference between DS9 and everyone else is that in DS9, the Ferengi were treated like they had an actual culture and reasons for what they did beyond just one-note "Profit, profit, profit!"

I bolded the part of your quote I am responding to.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Yeah, Ira Behr is to the Ferengi what Ron Moore is to Klingons and Dorothy Fontana to Vulcans.

I think the big difference between DS9 and everyone else is that in DS9, the Ferengi were treated like they had an actual culture and reasons for what they did beyond just one-note "Profit, profit, profit!"

Just from the limited amount of info on the "TNG" bonus material, I always thought Mrs. Fontana was a short-lived writer for that show, who was fired for disagreeing with Gene Roddenberry. But I looked her up anyway, and it turned out she wrote ten episode of "TOS", five of "TNG", and one each of "TAS", "DS9", and "New Voyages". She also wrote one novel for Pocket Books, called "Vulcan's Glory", and an IDW comic book titled "The Enterprise Experiment". She also wrote the scripts for Bethesda Softworks video games "Star Trek: Legacy" and "Star Trek: Tactical Assault". Todd Vaughn, the company's VP of Development, described Mrs. Fontana as "one of Star Trek's most prolific and distinguished writers".

Sadly, she passed away in 2019, from cancer.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Just from the limited amount of info on the "TNG" bonus material, I always thought Mrs. Fontana was a short-lived writer for that show, who was fired for disagreeing with Gene Roddenberry. But I looked her up anyway, and it turned out she wrote ten episode of "TOS", five of "TNG", and one each of "TAS", "DS9", and "New Voyages". She also wrote one novel for Pocket Books, called "Vulcan's Glory", and an IDW comic book titled "The Enterprise Experiment". She also wrote the scripts for Bethesda Softworks video games "Star Trek: Legacy" and "Star Trek: Tactical Assault". Todd Vaughn, the company's VP of Development, described Mrs. Fontana as "one of Star Trek's most prolific and distinguished writers".

Sadly, she passed away in 2019, from cancer.

Yes, I have tremendous respect for Fontana and what she accomplished. She was one of the architects of Star Trek.