What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[fireproof78]

Into Darkness had no reason to race-change Khan. Oh, you couldn't reach an agreement with del Toro? How about Banderas? How about any of the massive numbers of non-white actors working in Hollywood in the 2010's? They had a plethora of suitable non-white actors for the role and still chose Cumberbatch.

Schedule and availability and budget.

Also, justification in movie helped.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Schedule and availability and budget.

Also, justification in movie helped.

Okay, admittedly, this is the Trek film I've watched the least (It's easily my least favorite), but where on earth did they justify Khan's race change?

 

[cooleddie74]

In the comic adaptation, where they reveal Khan was found asleep inside the Botany Bay and looked like Ricardo Montalban but surgically altered to appear European and given a name change to John Harrison so that citizens of the 23rd century wouldn't recognize that a genetic tyrant from the pre-warp era was still alive. I SO WISH that had been explained in the movie itself.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, admittedly, this is the Trek film I've watched the least (It's easily my least favorite), but where on earth did they justify Khan's race change?

Khan: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause, a smokescreen to conceal my true identity.

How else could Marcus conceal his identity, given how Kirk, and Marcus, would have identified Khan.

 

[Cr0sis21]

In the comic adaptation, where they reveal Khan was found asleep inside the Botany Bay and looked like Ricardo Montalban but surgically altered to appear European and given a name change to John Harrison so that citizens of the 23rd century wouldn't recognize that a genetic tyrant from the pre-warp era was still alive. I SO WISH that had been explained in the movie itself.

I wish that too.
Didn't happen in the movie, though, so...
I mean, I'm a huge fan and I never heard of that. The average viewer just thinks "Why is a guy named Khan white?"

Khan: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause, a smokescreen to conceal my true identity.

How else could Marcus conceal his identity, given how Kirk, and Marcus, would have identified Khan.

Well, it doesn't explain his race change. Just the name.
And even when they knew his name, they still had to go ask Old Spock who the heck this guy was.

 

[fireproof78]

And even when they knew his name, they still had to go ask Old Spock who the heck this guy was.

Ok, and?

Marcus was covering his tracks. Kind of the ploy of the whole movie.

In the comic adaptation, where they reveal Khan was found asleep inside the Botany Bay and looked like Ricardo Montalban but surgically altered to appear European and given a name change to John Harrison so that citizens of the 23rd century wouldn't recognize that a genetic tyrant from the pre-warp era was still alive. I SO WISH that had been explained in the movie itself.

I would have liked it too. The movie would have benefitted from deleting the space jump.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Ok, and?

Marcus was covering his tracks. Kind of the ploy of the whole movie.

Yeah, but you specifically said "How else would Marcus conceal his identity, given how Kirk would have identified him?"
But that isn't what happened. The story shows us that even told to his face, Kirk is clueless about who Khan is. So a viewer would have no reason, none, to infer that Khan even needed to change his name, let alone undergo a comic book style race swap.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, but you specifically said "How else would Marcus conceal his identity, given how Kirk would have identified him?"
But that isn't what happened. The story shows us that even told to his face, Kirk is clueless about who Khan is. So a viewer would have no reason, none, to infer that Khan even needed to change his name, let alone undergo a comic book style race swap.

Marcus wouldn't know what Kirk or Spock might not know.

Would not change his tactics or methods.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Marcus wouldn't know what Kirk or Spock might not know.

Would not change his tactics or methods.

Uh-huh.
And this is where narrative techniques come into play.
Here's the test: Does most of the audience make the same assumptions the writer eats them to? If the majority do, you accomplished your goal. If not? You failed.
And it doesn't count to have someone else explain it in an entirely different medium, either.

 

[fireproof78]

Uh-huh.
And this is where narrative techniques come into play.
Here's the test: Does most of the audience make the same assumptions the writer eats them to? If the majority do, you accomplished your goal. If not? You failed.
And it doesn't count to have someone else explain it in an entirely different medium, either.

This was my assumption 10 years go in the theater.

Others can assume what they like. What I have observed, here and elsewhere, is a tendency to gloss over much nuance in these films, Kirk's arc, Marcus' motivation, and how his plan would work.

It's a fascinating case to watch especially knowing Space Seed.

 

[Citiprime]

Can I ask what may be a stupid question about the issue of Khan and the controversy over whitewashing...

But doesn't the nature of the character explain any differences (and assumptions) about appearance and heritage, whether it be Montalbán or Cumberbatch?

Khan is a product of genetic engineering. His entire existence is based on a manipulation of genetic material. His attributes and appearance can all have been manipulated for various reasons. And I never took the name Khan Noonien Singh to be definitive proof that he has an Indian heritage. For all we know it's a name he was either given for reasons beyond direct heritage or chose for reasons beyond some sort of familial pride. The donor DNA that's the basis of his genome could have come from multiple sources, with Sikh/Indian only being a partial contributor.

In "Space Seed," McGivers makes the guess that Khan is Sikh before she or the rest of the crew are aware of what they're dealing with. And she admittedly does it based on stereotypes (e.g., to show how things have changed from the 1960s, Scotty calls one of Khan's crew "Oriental" which I would hope is not a term that comes back into favor in the 23rd century).

 

[fireproof78]

In "Space Seed," McGivers makes the guess that Khan is Sikh before she or the rest of the crew are aware of what they're dealing with. And she admittedly does it based on stereotypes (e.g., to show how things have changed from the 1960s, Scotty calls one of Khan's crew "Oriental" which I would hope is not a term that comes back into favor in the 23rd century).

The evidence for Khan being Shik is the same as me being French.

Spoiler alert: I have no French ancestry.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

The evidence for Khan being Shik is the same as me being French.

Spoiler alert: I have no French ancestry.

I do - my last name is an American variant of a family name used in France.

 

[fireproof78]

I do - my last name is an American variant of a family name used in France.

Oh, so is mine. But the genetics did not bear that out, so it was adopted at some point in Canada by my ancestors.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Oh, so is mine. But the genetics did not bear that out, so it was adopted at some point in Canada by my ancestors.

Ah...well, I never took any DNA test or anything, so I really don't know a lot about my roots. I was told that besides French, I also have English and German somewhere in my blood, and also Native (Blackfoot, to be precise).

 

[fireproof78]

Ah...well, I never took any DNA test or anything, so I really don't know a lot about my roots. I was told that besides French, I also have English and German somewhere in my blood, and also Native (Blackfoot, to be precise).

Parents did. Dad was raised believing strong French roots. DNA testing stated otherwise.

German, yes. Even some Middle Eastern.

 

[1001001]

So is this TrekBBS or Ancestry?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

So is this TrekBBS or Ancestry?

Sorry - I got a little carried away.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The problem is, Abrams knew if he cast an Indian actor, or just a non white actor, it'd be pretty obvious the villain was Khan.

They were looking at Hispanic actors for Khan. Producer and co-writer Roberto Orci is Mexican-American. IIRC, Cumberbatch was a last minute decision.

Khan being white? His specific history indicates he is not white. And he was famously played by an actor who, while not Indian, was most certainly not white.

Depends on how wide or narrow you want to cast that particular net. Montalban's parents were from Spain. They brown faced him to play Khan.

Gene wanted a Sikh, as part of his worldwide vision. The casting director...probably did the best he could with what was on hand.

Did he? He named the character after a friend from WWII IN hope the friend would contact him. I don't think the friend was a Sikh, though "Kim Noonien Wang" is the name usally given The script was credit to Gene Coon and Carey Wilbur. Though GR was involved with rewrites. I assume when the character shifted from Nordic (Ragnar Thorwald/John Erickson) to Indian they decided he should be a Sikh. Though MA indicates that happend after Montalban was castl

In "Space Seed," McGivers makes the guess that Khan is Sikh before she or the rest of the crew are aware of what they're dealing with.

Which still begs the question "how?" Nothing about Khan lying in his cryo-tube says "Sikh". I have to assume poor research on the part of the writers, who just wanted Khan to be an "Indian warrior".Sikh fit the bill and gave him a cultural mish-mash of a name.

 

[fireproof78]

So is this TrekBBS or Ancestry?

It's a Trek through Ancestry.

Film at 11

Which still begs the question "how?" Nothing about Khan lying in his cryo-tube says "Sikh". I have to assume poor research on the part of the writers, who just wanted Khan to be an "Indian warrior".Sikh fit the bill and gave him a cultural mish-mash of a name.

Very poor research.