Ways that SNW actually improved TOS

[evilchumlee]

Obviously, since we can't go more than two episodes without Kirk showing up.

TOS Kirk: "I met Pike one time."
SNW Kirk: "I mean, I was on the Enterprise every other day, I just strategically avoided running into Pike so my TOS line could still be accurate."

You know what though? At the very least, good on SNW for at least paying lip service. Kirk shouldn't be there, but AT LEAST if they NEED him to be there, they're still trying to make TOS work and finding all sorts of contrived ways for Kirk to not run into Pike.

EDIT -

Everyone has a line, but I don't generally scoff at recastings. I usually think they're unnecessary, just make a new character, but recastings have a bit more real-world, "nothing we can do about it" reasoning.

Changing an object or lore I can excuse less, because there's much less reason to do so. The original TOS Enterprise isn't going to be held up in pay negotiations or pass away and be unable to be used. They could use it anytime. They choose not to.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Hard disagree. Starfleet is a very slow to change organization, especially if something proves dangerous in the first experiment. I'm sure thete are alternatives but none as safe or reliable as dilithiun has proven to be.

Fan fiction is way worse than Discovery.

That's fine that they are slow to change but it's usually decades at the most. We are talking millennium here.

 

[Christopher]

But there's only so much I'm willing to let pass. Discovery went way too far where everything right down to the uniforms were changed completely.

I'm sure people said the exact same thing about TMP in 1979. That was only a difference of 3 or so years since TOS, but everything looked completely different. DSC was more like 8-9 years before TOS.

Okay, it was also just a few years after "The Cage." But ultimately, none of this is meant to be a documentary, or study materials for a test. It's different works of creativity pretending to represent a shared reality, but it's not reality. The point of it is to imagine and be artistic rather than to "get it right." Just look at all the different ways that productions of Hamlet have redesigned the sets and costumes while telling the same story. It's just a matter of artistic interpretation. Creators have the right to exercise their individual creativity rather than just slavishly copying what someone else did. If it had been up to me, I wouldn't have changed so much either, but the fact that different creators choose different approaches is what makes it worthwhile, otherwise everything would be the same.

The spore drive itself was way too advanced. Somehow we are to believe that 1000 years later the spore drive os better than anything the Federation has. I can wave off some things being different but come on. It's stretching credibility of story telling and what people are willing to believe.

It was built into the premise of spore drive that it was too dangerous to keep using, because its use threatened to destroy the universe. Unfortunately, the producers of later seasons chose to gloss over that and make excuses for why Discovery needed to keep using the drive despite the risk, and by season 4 they pretty much ignored the issue entirely. (Maybe we can assume that by the 32nd century, they've figured out a way to mitigate the risk.)

Besides, Trek has always been full of incredible advances that show up for one episode and then get ignored. What about Sargon & Thalassa's androids that they left nearly completed? Those could've advanced Federation robotics immensely. Why wasn't kironide-induced telekinesis ever used again after "Plato's Stepchildren?" (Although my handwave there is that it was too risky due to heavy-metal toxicity.) Why didn't they keep using the Guardian of Forever for historical research? Look at early DS9 -- in just a few first-season episodes, they introduced quick-cloning ("A Man Alone") and the technology to transfer a dead person's mind into a new body ("The Passenger"), which in combination would allow immortality and transform all life forever, but both were forgotten thereafter. Not to mention the magic cure-all nanotech in "Battle Lines" -- it was said to only function on that one planetoid, but it can't have been that hard to reprogram it to work elsewhere, or to study how it works and replicate it elsewhere.

 

[fireproof78]

TOS Kirk: "I met Pike one time."

Not accurate.

That's fine that they are slow to change but it's usually decades at the most. We are talking millennium here.

And everything these use is dangerous as an alternative. And, as @Christopher notes there are several magical, life changing, devices that are quickly forgotten. This is a feature of Star Trek, not a bug.

Protesting against the dilithium use in the future is ignoring all the other magic tech in favor of knocking down one production.

 

[evilchumlee]

Not accurate.

I paraphrased.

Kirk: "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain."

The actual quote doesn't necessarily preclude subsequent meetings, however the delivery the line is generally understand to imply that they had only met the one time.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I find it hard to believe that a thousand years later starfleet was still reliant on dilithium crystals. I mean even the TNG era they were experimenting with things like soliton waves. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't either come up with a replacement for dilthium, replicate dilithium or come up with a completely new technology. It's just bad writing. It seemed more like fan fiction at times.

It always bothered me because, even in the 24th century there were other methods. That space folding tech. The, what was it, the soliton wave that ships just kind of ride on from TNG. The protostar drive from Prodigy. Transwarp, slipstream, hell even the artificial singularities that Romulan ships use. None of that is viable a thousand years later? It stained the suspension of disbelief.

But, back to the original topic: we've been talking any Kirk, and while I seem to be in the minority, I really like him on SNW. I didn't think I would, but the actor won me over. It helps that I think the episodes he was in were really good. I'm glad it's also given us an actual relationship between him and Sam.

 

[Christopher]

Everyone has a line, but I don't generally scoff at recastings. I usually think they're unnecessary, just make a new character, but recastings have a bit more real-world, "nothing we can do about it" reasoning.

Changing an object or lore I can excuse less, because there's much less reason to do so. The original TOS Enterprise isn't going to be held up in pay negotiations or pass away and be unable to be used. They could use it anytime. They choose not to.

Exactly -- they choose not to. It's not their job to slavishly copy, it's their job to be artists and creators, using Star Trek as their subject matter and their canvas. It's misunderstanding the entire purpose of fiction to think it's supposed to be as literally "correct" as a documentary or a history book. There are no "right" answers for something that's entirely made up. All of this is an exercise in individual creativity, and it's nonsense to say that the current designers' creativity is less valid than that of Matt Jefferies or Rick Sternbach just because it comes later. The designers have every bit as much right to interpret the subject in their own ways as the actors do to interpret the characters. These are not just "objects" -- they're the designers' and production artists' performances, as much as a line reading is an actor's performance or a music cue is an orchestra's performance.

 

[fireproof78]

I paraphrased.

Kirk: "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain."

The actual quote doesn't necessarily preclude subsequent meetings, however the delivery the line is generally understand to imply that they had only met the one time.

But subsequent interactions is not like an inferior officer to a superior. It's more familiar.

But, back to the original topic: we've been talking any Kirk, and while I seem to be in the minority, I really like him on SNW. I didn't think I would, but the actor won me over. It helps that I think the episodes he was in were really good. I'm glad it's also given us an actual relationship between him and Sam.

That is the one upside is his relationship with Sam.

 

[HotRod]

"I met Pike one time."

Nope.

They could use it anytime. They choose not to.

And with good reason. It's the 2020's. A ship designed in the early 60's, for 60's televisions, is going to look cheap and ridiculous to a modern audience.

Kirk: "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain."

The actual quote doesn't necessarily preclude subsequent meetings, however the delivery the line is generally understand to imply that they had only met the one time.

And yet he addresses him as "Chris." I'd say that shows a far much closer relationship than simply an officers talking to a superior.

 

[Tuskin38]

They could use it anytime. They choose not to.

They did in Discovery Season 2 (via archive footage), Prodigy, Lower Decks and Picard. In fact Lower Decks and Picard have used both designs.

The protostar drive from Prodigy. Transwarp, slipstream, hell even the artificial singularities that Romulan ships use.

Transwarp and Slipstream were mentioned by Book in Season 3. Slipstream isn't used often because of the rarity of benomite crystals, and a lot of transwarp corridors are full of debris making them hard to navigate. I believe we see this later in the season.

Prodigy season 1 says the Protostar drive uses dilithium.

No lines of dialogue in TNG or DS9 ever says that Romulans don't use Dilithium in their warp drives, and Nemesis does say they mine Dilithium on Remus.

While not canon since it never appeared on screen, Rick Sternbach did make a labelled diagram for a Romulan Singularity drive that mentions it uses dilithium.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Transwarp and Slipstream were mentioned by Book in Season 3. Slipstream isn't used often because of the rarity of benomite crystals, and a lot of transwarp corridors are full of debris making them hard to navigate. I believe we see this later in the season.

Prodigy season 1 says the Protostar drive uses dilithium.

No lines of dialogue in TNG or DS9 ever says that Romulans don't use Dilithium in their warp drives, and Nemesis does say they mine Dilithium on Remus.

While not canon since it never appeared on screen, Rick Sternbach did make a labelled diagram for a Romulan Singularity drive that mentions it uses dilithium.

Thank you, I've never seen that design. Since Sternbach was a designer for Trek, I'd be happy to just consider it canon until someone contradicts it.

I get what you're saying about the FTL drives. Some lip service is paid, yes. But of the thousands of warp capable species in the galaxy, none of them came up with a dilithium alternative in 100 years? Or were already using one?
That's what I mean when I say it strains credulity. I'll accept it for the sake of the story, but it's like an annoying pebble in your shoe.

 

[Tuskin38]

the galaxy, none of them came up with a dilithium alternative in 100 years? Or were already using one?
That's what I mean when I say it strains credulity.

It's possible dilithium was so abundant they didn't really consider it until it was too late...
Almost like Fossil fuels on earth.. hmmm.

 

[Cr0sis21]

It's possible dilithium was so abundant they didn't really consider it until it was too late...
Almost like Fossil fuels on earth.. hmmm.

Yes, allegory. The backbone of Trek. I approve, I just wish it made more sense. For instance, I can't help wondering what behave of that dilithium recharger that Princess Po created on Discovery. Even 1000 years later, after the Burn, they aren't willing to share it? Why?
I do appreciate the metaphor for resource usage, but is hard to take it seriously when 50 years of the franchise has given us a multitude of solutions, including one from the same show just one season earlier.

 

[Nerys Myk]

 

[Farscape One]

I have only been able to go through part of this thread, so apologies if this has already been said.


I don't think SNW has made TOS better or worse... it's simply expanded it. It has done a better job with characters like Chapel, Uhura, and T'Pring.

Speaking of T'Pring...

Has it occurred to anyone that she can be vindictive and logical at the same time? Look at the Lt. Cmdr. Chu'lak from DS9's "FIELD OF FIRE"... his reason for killing those Starfleet was 'because logic demanded it'. Even though all they had were pictures of themselves and their loved ones smiling or laughing.

Remember that Vulcan emotions are supposed to be even stronger than humans, which is part of the reason why they keep them under such tight control. But there are things that do bubble just below the surface of their conversations. (Arrogance and annoyance at someone, for example.)

I don't see how SNW has made "AMOK TIME" worse, for the episode or the character. If anything, it added layers to T'Pring's decision and actions in "AMOK TIME".

 

[Christopher]

No lines of dialogue in TNG or DS9 ever says that Romulans don't use Dilithium in their warp drives, and Nemesis does say they mine Dilithium on Remus.

While not canon since it never appeared on screen, Rick Sternbach did make a labelled diagram for a Romulan Singularity drive that mentions it uses dilithium.

Exactly. Dilithium is not the power source or the space-warping mechanism, it's just the thing that channels the high-energy plasma from the former to the latter. Starfleet drives create that plasma using matter/antimatter annihilation, Romulan drives do it by compression in a microsingularity's accretion disk, similarly to the drives in Arthur C. Clarke's novel Imperial Earth.

It was established as far back as "Mudd's Women" that ship's power was fed through the "lithium crystals," not generated by them. Maybe that's the reason so many different stardrives use dilithium. They may use different means of creating their power and different mechanisms for warping space, but perhaps dilithium is simply the best known substance for channeling high-energy plasma in whatever kinds of drive require it. After all, it would always take a huge amount of energy to warp space, regardless of how you generate it or utilize it. There can't be a lot of different substances that can survive channeling energies on that level, or can do it as precisely or efficiently as dilithium.

For instance, I can't help wondering what behave of that dilithium recharger that Princess Po created on Discovery. Even 1000 years later, after the Burn, they aren't willing to share it? Why?

It was a dilithium recrystallizer, and it's a moot question, since Spock independently invented dilithium recrystallization a few decades later. TNG established that recrystallization was a known, routine technology by the 24th century. For that matter, the season 3 premiere established that Book had a dilithium recrystallizer on his ship.

I think the dilithium-scarcity issue in season 3 wasn't so much that they lacked the substance (though that was part of it) as that they didn't know what had caused it to detonate or whether it would happen again, which would've made people reluctant to risk using it more than they had to, or stockpiling too much of it in one place. Although admittedly that's not the impression season 3 tended to give.

I don't think SNW has made TOS better or worse... it's simply expanded it. It has done a better job with characters like Chapel, Uhura, and T'Pring.

But that was the question -- not whether it made TOS as a whole better or worse, just if there were ways that it made elements of TOS seem better or more meaningful in context. Basically, things that you'd enjoy more about TOS if you rewatched it after seeing SNW, things you see in a new light now because of what SNW established.

Has it occurred to anyone that she can be vindictive and logical at the same time?

I repeat: This has never been about whether she can be that way, but whether we want her to be. If what she did was entirely optional, it makes her a far more monstrous person than I'm willing to accept.

 

[Farscape One]

And people can't be monstrous and logical at the same time?

 

[Cr0sis21]

It was a dilithium recrystallizer, and it's a moot question, since Spock independently invented dilithium recrystallization a few decades later. TNG established that recrystallization was a known, routine technology by the 24th century. For that matter, the season 3 premiere established that Book had a dilithium recrystallizer on his ship.

I think the dilithium-scarcity issue in season 3 wasn't so much that they lacked the substance (though that was part of it) as that they didn't know what had caused it to detonate or whether it would happen again, which would've made people reluctant to risk using it more than they had to, or stockpiling too much of it in one place. Although admittedly that's not the impression season 3 tended to give.

see, that explanation works a LOT better, but it dies still leave a lot of head-scratching, but that's another thread.

I repeat: This has never been about whether she can be that way, but whether we want her to be. If what she did was entirely optional, it makes her a far more monstrous person than I'm willing to accept.

To me, it's either T'Pring is monstrous, or Vulcan society is. If we take it as is, Vulan is essentially on the same level as Saudi Arabia regarding women's rights, and that Durant really sit right with me.
I prefer that T'Pring just did something awful, but with a reason. She is essentially giving Spock her own version of "The Vulcan Hello", and I actually like that better. BUT I can see why you would not.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Kirk: "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain."

The actual quote doesn't necessarily preclude subsequent meetings, however the delivery the line is generally understand to imply that they had only met the one time.

Actually, I would suggest that it does somewhat suggest that this was the most recent meeting (precluding subsequent meetings), but doesn't in any way preclude prior meetings.

 

[evilchumlee]

And with good reason. It's the 2020's. A ship designed in the early 60's, for 60's televisions, is going to look cheap and ridiculous to a modern audience.

And yet the "visually updated" ship looks very close to the original 60's ship and we're all applauding how amazing it looks.

So if they took the actual ship that made it to TV, put straight nacelles without a hole in them, no window on the bridge, elongated the neck a bit, and used a slightly different color pallet all of a sudden it becomes a horrible, laughable thing that nobody would take seriously?

Actually, I would suggest that it does somewhat suggest that this was the most recent meeting (precluding subsequent meetings), but doesn't in any way preclude prior meetings.

That's fair, and this is a fairly inane argument. I went out of my way to say SNW is doing a good job with this. Man, sometimes the fanbase is so toxic you get attacked when you give the show some praise. You can power down the shields a few notches!