Star Trek Canon Problems

[Citiprime]

What fundamental changes have been made? Name one absolutely fundamental pillar of Star Trek that has been changed.

I’ll name 3:

• Gorn are Xenomorphs that the Federation forgets about, instead of just creating a new species that you could have used these aspects with.
• The Federation is depicted as an apartheid state in season 2 of SNW that actively discriminates and segregates the genetically engineered on member worlds, even though we know the Federation has been shown previously to support democratic values and rejects caste systems. And this new depiction completely IGNORES the issues raised in DS9 about the same issue.
• The Khan of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” (two pivotal and consequential moments for the franchise) CANNOT be the same person that we see in SNW. He will have to be a fundamentally different person, since his life events will be different, and the events of those stories will have to be different based on those changes.

We don't have to convince anyon. It's the official word from those who own the franchise. Those saying different are simply screaming into tbe void.

It’s called criticism. I think it’s still allowed.

Again.....what significant changes? TNG changed the date of the Eugenics Wars over 30 years ago. SNW is simply following the canon. Which is oh so very very important.

This isn’t about dates. The events of TOS “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” cannot be the same. The very nature of the character is different than the one in those stories. “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow” explicitly TELLS THE AUDIENCE this is a fundamental change caused by Romulan time travel. It will be different.

And the reasoning used by Goldsman for the change in interviews is one of the stupidest and most convoluted pieces of bullshit I’ve heard. It adds nothing to the character. It adds nothing to the overall story involving the character. And had everything to do with the show having to do its own “member berries” by having to have La’an related to Khan.

 

[Cr0sis21]

They'd say it's Star Trek. Most people on the street don't give a shit about different versions or timelines.

"That's Star Trek."

Most people on the street don't care in general. My wife? She still doesn't know the difference between Marvel and DC. She doesn't know why Madame Web isn't part of the MCU, nor does she care.
Headcanon is fine. But if you try to make it official that this is in one universe, and this is another, and this is yet another, then you're going to confuse casual audiences way, way more than a slightly different looking enterprise will.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I’ll name 3:

• Gorn are Xenomorphs that the Federation forgets about, instead of just creating a new species that you could have used these aspects with.

There was hardly anything developed about the Gorn in Arena. In fact, this kind of validates the original crew's reason to the Gorn if THESE were the kind of interactions they'd had previously. And it strengthens the message of the original to boot.

• The Federation is depicted as an apartheid state in season 2 of SNW that actively discriminates and segregates the genetically engineered on member worlds, even though we know the Federation has been shown previously to support democratic values and rejects caste systems.

Watch the episode again. That was an independent colony trying to gain entry to the Federation. And the Fed's anti-genetic engineering stance has been canon since season 6 of DS9.

• The Khan of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” (two pivotal and consequential moments for the franchise) CANNOT be the same person that we see in SNW. He will have to be a fundamentally different person, since his life events will be different, and the events of those stories will have to be different based on those...

I prefer that over the 90's Eugenics Wars, honestly.

 

[HotRod]

Gorn are Xenomorphs that the Federation forgets about, instead of just creating a new species that you could have used these aspects with.

Nothing so far cannot be creatively explained. We knew nothing about the breeding practices of the Gorn before SNW. Kirk's line about his foe apparently being a Gorn is easily explained as there bring multiple species of Gorn. Trek fans have been coming up with creative head canon explanations for decades. This is no different.

The Federation is depicted as an apartheid state in season 2 of SNW that actively discriminates and segregates the genetically engineered on member worlds, even though we know the Federation has been shown previously to support democratic values and rejects caste systems.

SNW is going with what was established in DS9 and Enterprise. If you have a problem, it's with those series. SNW is simply following the canon.

The Khan of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” (two pivotal and consequential moments for the franchise) CANNOT be the same person that we see in SNW. He will have to be a fundamentally different person, since his life events will be different, and the events of those stories will have to be different based on those changes.

Besides the dates changing from the 90's, what else to change. Only TOS and Wrath of Khan mentioned those dates. Everything else has ignored them. We are willing to ignore many things from previous series and films. Why is this so different?

This isn’t about dates. The events of TOS “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan” cannot be the same.

again..... why? He's a genetic superman frozen in space after losing the Eugenics Wars. Thats pretty much it in terms of backstory.

The very nature of the character is different than the one in those stories.

I wasn't aware we had a detailed and canonical biography of Khan. I must've missed that.

“Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow” explicitly TELLS THE AUDIENCE this is a fundamental change caused by Romulan time travel.

It was a wink and a nod to the fact the timelines have been fucked with since the first season of TOS. They were having a bit of fun with the fact TOS listed one date, and pretty much everything else went with something different.

 

[Tuskin38]

Plus that episode also said Time was fighting back trying to correct itself.

 

[Citiprime]

Watch the episode again. That was an independent colony trying to gain entry to the Federation. And the Fed's anti-genetic engineering stance has been canon since season 6 of DS9.

Per Memory Alpha:

Chin-Riley grew up on a Federation colony in the Vaultera Nebula. She had one brother. (SNW: "Ad Astra per Aspera")​

Also, the only thing established in ENT and DS9 is that the Federation doesn’t allow the genetically engineered to serve in Starfleet and parents are criminally punished for altering their children.

NOTHING in those episodes suggests that United Earth or the Federation allows the segregation of an entire population of people.

Besides the dates changing from the 90's, what else to change. Only TOS and Wrath of Khan mentioned those dates. Everything else has ignored them. We are willing to ignore many things from previous series and films. Why is this so different?

Here’s where we get into the chicken and egg part of this argument. If the change doesn’t really change anything why change it? If you have to specifically make this change, then why do it if it has no meaning beyond a date?

If that’s all it is, then leaving it in the 1990s shouldn’t make a difference, unless we’re rewriting all of Star Trek’s “past” where the Vulcans invented Velcro, NASA was launching orbital nuclear weapons platforms in the 1960s, and Irish reunification is happening sometime this year along with the Bell Riots.

It’s a stupid change that creates more problems than it supposedly solves, because the logical implication is that if things are different, if the entire series is doing a different “interpretation” of established elements (like Goldsman admittedly says he’s doing with the Gorn) Khan will be different.

 

[HotRod]

If the change doesn’t really change anything why change it?

Ask Gene Roddenberry. Was he not heavily involved with TNG Season 1?

 

[BillJ]

…breading practices of the Gorn…

I definitely want to know more about this.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Per Memory Alpha:

Chin-Riley grew up on a Federation colony in the Vaultera Nebula. She had one brother. (SNW: "Ad Astra per Aspera")​

Also, the only thing established in ENT and DS9 is that the Federation doesn’t allow the genetically engineered to serve in Starfleet and parents are criminally punished for altering their children.

NOTHING in those episodes suggests that United Earth or the Federation allows the segregation of an entire population of people.

neither does anything in that episode.
Tell me: Did they segregate their population before or after they became a Fed colony? Are they still segregated? Is there any evidence that genetically engineered people are actual segregated in Fed worlds? Has it been established that some Illyrians are willing to go to extreme lengths to gain entry to the Federation?

Memory Alpha is like Wikipedia: A good place to start, but not the final answer.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I definitely want to know more about this.

New head canon: There's a secret black market for fried Gorn tail. That's why the one in Arena was missing his tail. It's also why they're so pissed off at everyone

 

[Citiprime]

Ask Gene Roddenberry. Was he not heavily involved with TNG Season 1?

And people don’t exactly accept everything that came out of those early seasons, or Roddenberry’s interpretation, as gospel on everything, do they?

Or are the Klingons a member of the Federation per dialogue from early TNG?

From “Samaritan Snare”:

PICARD: Several friends and I were on leave at Farspace Starbase Earhart. It was little more than a galactic outpost in those days.

WESLEY: Was this before the Klingons joined the Federation?

PICARD: That's right.​

 

[Finn]

And people don’t exactly accept everything that came out of those early seasons, or Roddenberry’s interpretation, as gospel on everything, do they?

Or are the Klingons a member of the Federation per dialogue from early TNG?

From “Samaritan Snare”:

PICARD: Several friends and I were on leave at Farspace Starbase Earhart. It was little more than a galactic outpost in those days.

WESLEY: Was this before the Klingons joined the Federation?

PICARD: That's right.​

So..don't take the dialogue from any trek over the years, as gospel set into stone. Alright, got it!

 

[HotRod]

And people don’t exactly accept everything that came out of those early seasons

But they'll take things from TOS season 1 as gospel?

How bout First Contact? Enterprise?

 

[Cr0sis21]

So..don't take the dialogue from any trek over the years, as gospel set into stone. Alright, got it!

If we judge it based on those standards, we had about four different Trek timelines halfway thru the first season of TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

So..don't take the dialogue from any trek over the years, as gospel set into stone. Alright, got it!

Perfect. I'll do that. People don't speak strictly literally.

But they'll take things from TOS season 1 as gospel?

How bout First Contact? Enterprise?

Vulcan or Vulcanian. James R Kirk? Vulcan has been conquered or not? How far in to the future is TOS?

 

[Citiprime]

So..don't take the dialogue from any trek over the years, as gospel set into stone. Alright, got it!

If it’s not set in stone and it’s all fungible then what’s the problem with it being different aspects which are their own thing?

You guys want it both ways. You want to claim a timeline, while changing the timeline, while also insisting all of the changes are distinctions without a difference, but if there’s shown to be distinct differences then it doesn’t matter because none of the previous history matters (when you don’t want it to matter).

So, why again, is a separate continuity a problem for these shows to exist in?

 

[Cr0sis21]

If it’s not set in stone and it’s all fungible then what’s the problem with it being different aspects which are their own thing?

You guys want it both ways. You want to claim a timeline, while changing the timeline, while also insisting all of the changes are distinctions without a difference, but if there’s shown to be distinct differences then it doesn’t matter because none of the previous history matters (when you don’t want it to matter).

So, why again, is a separate continuity a problem for these shows to exist in?

It's not a problem if you want to see it that way.
But look at it like this:
In Amok Time, T'Pring is just a cold, manipulative jerk.
However, in SNW she's an incredibly trusting, understanding, loving fiancee frustrated with how little she gets to see Spock. Until, that is, Spock lies to her and cheats on her.
Suddenly, Amok Time is a much deeper, richer story.
But if SNW is "it's own thing", T'Pring is still just a jerk in Amok Time.

 

[Lord Garth]

I strangely feel better about this place than I did a month-and-a-half ago. Air has been cleared and I'm glad we had this thread. Never thought I'd say that.

 

[BillJ]

But they'll take things from TOS season 1 as gospel?

How bout First Contact? Enterprise?

I can’t speak to the latter two, but TOS was my childhood. People tend to be protective of those positive things from early in life.

 

[HotRod]

I can’t speak to the latter two, but TOS was my childhood. People tend to be protective of those positive things from early in life.

TOS was my first Trek. It holds a dear place in my heart. That said, I don't believe that anything is set in stone. It was full of things that other series have rightfully ignored or retconned. And I'm fine with that.