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Star Trek Canon Problems

Looks just the TOS one just with pants.
Yup, and we had those in the CAGE and TOS. Not as long, which is fine, since I imagine different cuts of uniforms are available based upon captains discretion.
Wasn't it allegedly Grace Lee Whitney who suggested them?
I thought it was Nichelle Nichols, and it was considered fashionable at the time.

Unlike nowaways, were a miniskirt is not regarded well.
 
Scream this from the rooftops. I say this as someone who adores TOS and the Original Enteprise.

So where do you stop on that?
T'Pol panting like a dog in heat in "Bounty" has certainly aged poorly too. As has Troi and Seven's outfits. So...do we just continually keep sloughing off the parts that age out of modern sensibilities?
 
I know. I've never seen anything from you indicating that.
But you have to acknowledge that much of the loudest wailing and gnashing of teeth is from people objecting to the very existence of those shows. And it's something that goes back to TNG's premiere.

From my perspective, I break things down into four different timelines, broad strokes are the same, details are different.
 
I pretty much agree with everything you said. To me however, there's a huge difference between not having things in a 50+ year franchise perfectly match up continuity-wise, and purposely changing things so much that your new stuff looks and feels nothing like the source material. At that point it's debatable whether your show is still part of the larger established universe, or it's its own thing. I think the problem arises when the producers of that new show still feel the need to use the old show as a crutch because they don't have enough faith that their show will be able to stand on its own, so they are afraid to go the 'reboot' route because they are worried that people won't watch it unless it's tied to the previous iteration. Ron Moore didn't seem to have that problem when he created nuBSG. JJ Abrams didn't seem to have that problem when he created the Kelvin Timeline (although there still was a connection to the prime universe with Spock & Nero, but that was peripheral to the larger story.)
I agree with this 100%

The arguments over this flows from the insistence of the producers, studio PR department, and some fans that it all fits together, when it's obvious it doesn't.

And it's ok if it doesn't!! If Discovery, Strange New Worlds, or any of the Paramount+ era shows just said they're their own thing, it would still be Star Trek, it would still use the basic elements, and it would still base itself off the original and even the characters we all knew, but it would be so freeing for those shows. They would be able to go in any direction they liked and present their own visions, similar to the Battlestar Galactica model, where Ron Moore's show was its own thing. It could exist and the original exists. And people accepted it.

Instead, we have these arguments that border on gaslighting where people want to argue to the ends of the Earth that it's all the same and all still fits, when SNW's Gorn isn't the TOS Gorn, and the new Canadian version of Khan can't be the same version of Khan that appears in TOS. It's different. And it would be so much better if everyone involved would just accept that, since when you want to argue it all fits together that invites people to judge it on how well it fits.
Probably because, most of the time, the reason someone says that is to invalidate a series that has a good number of fans, such as Lower Decks or Discovery. There's nothing inherently insulting about saying "Everything is included". There is something insulting about saying "The show you like isn't good enough to be part of everything else."
But it's not insulting to say that the old stuff that everyone knew and liked for decades isn't good enough to be acknowledged now, so that's why we gotta pretend the new version is how it always existed?
 
So where do you stop on that?
T'Pol panting like a dog in heat in "Bounty" has certainly aged poorly too. As has Troi and Seven's outfits. So...do we just continually keep sloughing off the parts that age out of modern sensibilities?
Sure, why not.
But it's not insulting to say that the old stuff that everyone knew and liked for decades isn't good enough to be acknowledged now, so that's why we gotta pretend the new version is how it always existed?
Except, it's not being insulting. Unless we want to TNG as insulting towards TOS, which is was at times.
I know there's at least one person of this forum who considers TNG to be incompatible with TOS.
It isn't just a new show thing.
I wear that like a badge of honor.
 
But you have to acknowledge that much of the loudest wailing and gnashing of teeth is from people objecting to the very existence of those shows.

The biggest thing I was objecting to in those shows is that they don't match the aesthetics. If they were more in-line with the rest of the universe, *OR* they were just declared to be their own version unrelated to the others, they're fine. (EDIT *OR* even just took place "after" TNG+, also fine.)
 
Then they would look like shit.

So don't set the show at that very specific point in Star Trek for no actual reason?

If Discovery came out and it was "Hey check out this awesome Star Trek show in the mid-25th century"... awesome! Hell yeah!
 
If Discovery came out and it was "Hey check out this awesome Star Trek show in the mid-25th century"... awesome! Hell yeah!

So many of Discovery's early issues came from trying to shoehorn it into TOS timeline. I think the show would've probably done better if they had simply said, when asked about what timeline it was, it is Star Trek. Use your imagination.
 
Except it doesn't look anything like the 25th or 24th Centuries. Too primitive tech wise.

People would complain either way.
It tried too hard to be different and appeal to a broader audience, with mixed success. Moving the timeline, while I see the benefits, would not stop the declarations of DSC as noncanon.
 
So many of Discovery's early issues came from trying to shoehorn it into TOS timeline. I think the show would've probably done better if they had simply said, when asked about what timeline it was, it is Star Trek. Use your imagination.

Hell i'd accept that.

DSC is such an oddity. "A Star Trek show billed around nostalgia, but with none of the nostalgia!"

It tried too hard to be different and appeal to a broader audience, with mixed success. Moving the timeline, while I see the benefits, would not stop the declarations of DSC as noncanon.

You'll never please everyone. If I can be honest with myself, if you just basically bolted the show into the 25th century and kept the plot, characters and everything the same... it's still REALLY bad, but at least it's not really bad and also nonsensical in terms of the shared universe, so it's less "this is bad and not canon" and just "this is bad", like what happened with its time jump. Now it's just... bad.

SNW is in a weird spot because I *LIKE* SNW. It just... is completely nonsensical in terms of the shared universe.
 
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