Star Trek Canon Problems

[fireproof78]

But we're saying Trek should totally rescind TOS, basically.

No.

Which one, do you think, is most likely to endear this new viewer to the franchise as a whole?

Ask Star Wars fans. There are fans who go from the PT to the OT, despite extreme visual differences and problems in the continuity. There are people who go from the OT to the PT, which is in reverse order.

So, yeah, let fans decide.

Source? Which continuity is important.
"Mr. Goldman, will you have female captains in SNW?"
"Of course. "
*cue angry mob*

Which isn't continuity because it's based on one line from a person suffering from delusions and mental health disturbances. Might not be the most credible witness.

 

[Cr0sis21]

No.


Ask Star Wars fans. There are fans who go from the PT to the OT, despite extreme visual differences and problems in the continuity. There are people who go from the OT to the PT, which is in reverse order.

So, yeah, let fans decide.

Which isn't continuity because it's based on one line from a person suffering from delusions and mental health disturbances. Might not be the most credible witness.

It has a stronger continuity standing than "Starbase execs are Commander rank," though.

 

[fireproof78]

It has a stronger continuity standing than "Starbase execs are Commander rank," though.

Maybe. But, it's not as black and white as often stated. A person, suffering from mental health disorders, and strong enough delusions to kill.

 

[evilchumlee]

Yeah, it just started with a crisis point with an alien race known as the *checks notes* Klingons. Plus Harry Mudd (annoying), Spock (of course) and Sarek and Pike, and Amanda, and a Klingon hidden agent (Arne Darvin's predecessor), the House of Kor, the Mirror Universe, etc.

Just sprinkling in buzzwords doesn't make it work.

Because all I see are "Klingons" that aren't Klingons, "Spock" who isn't terrible but also isn't really Spock, the "Mirror Universe" that is nonsensical in relation to even just the story bits, disregarding any visuals.

Calling a donkey a stallion doesn't make it a stallion.

 

[fireproof78]

Just sprinkling in buzzwords doesn't make it work.

Because all I see are "Klingons" that aren't Klingons, "Spock" who isn't terrible but also isn't really Spock, the "Mirror Universe" that is nonsensical in relation to even just the story bits, disregarding any visuals.

Calling a donkey a stallion doesn't make it a stallion.

Works for me...

Klingons have a built in excuse to look like Klingons, and still talk of honor and glory and combat.

Spock is at the stage of his life that he is smiling.

Not sure the issue with the MU.

 

[BillJ]

Just sprinkling in buzzwords doesn't make it work.

Because all I see are "Klingons" that aren't Klingons, "Spock" who isn't terrible but also isn't really Spock, the "Mirror Universe" that is nonsensical in relation to even just the story bits, disregarding any visuals.

Calling a donkey a stallion doesn't make it a stallion.

All of it was in there to give fans that hit of sweet, sweet nostalgia.

 

[fireproof78]

All of it was in there to give fans that hit of sweet, sweet nostalgia.

That's all that matters.

 

[HotRod]

Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Myers give interviews where they EXPLICITLY explain how things are different in SNW and why they're not concerned with continuity if it conflicts with the story they want to tell, and when confronted with those interviews there are people on this board that STILL pretend like "oh yeah, that doesn't mean anything. It's still in continuity."

All they said was that they wouldn't sacrifice a good story to stay 100% within canon. They aren't going out of their way to break continuity. They're doing exactly what every other series has done. Bend the rules in the name of good storytelling.

 

[fireproof78]

Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonso Myers give interviews where they EXPLICITLY explain how things are different in SNW and why they're not concerned with continuity if it conflicts with the story they want to tell, and when confronted with those interviews there are people on this board that STILL pretend like "oh yeah, that doesn't mean anything. It's still in continuity."

Because it is. Continuity can contradict itself. It's called YATI.

 

[HotRod]

Source? Which continuity is important.
"Mr. Goldman, will you have female captains in SNW?"
"Of course. "
*cue angry mob*

https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/18/in...pocks-arc-klingon-design-gorn-canon-season-3/

 

[C.E. Evans]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. To me however, there's a huge difference between not having things in a 50+ year franchise perfectly match up continuity-wise, and purposely changing things so much that your new stuff looks and feels nothing like the source material. At that point it's debatable whether your show is still part of the larger established universe, or it's its own thing. I think the problem arises when the producers of that new show still feel the need to use the old show as a crutch because they don't have enough faith that their show will be able to stand on its own, so they are afraid to go the 'reboot' route because they are worried that people won't watch it unless it's tied to the previous iteration.

I understand where you're coming from. I think that if you have a long-running franchise with multiple creators at the helm--rather than a sole creator with a singular vision in charge--it's unavoidable that there will be liberties taken with the original source material. Rick Berman was probably the one who wanted the most for things to be as cohesive as possible onscreen, while other creators saw such cohesiveness as more of a limitation for the stories they wanted to tell. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, just that it was the path Trek took.

 

[Lord Garth]

All of it was in there to give fans that hit of sweet, sweet nostalgia.

No. When I was looking at the DSC Klingons, the last thing I was thinking of was the '60s Klingons. You might've been thinking about the '60s Klingons, but I wasn't. When I saw the DSC Mirror Universe, the last thing I thought of was the TOS Mirror Universe.

You use that word over and over and over and over again, but you always use it wrong. If it was the TOS Klingons in DSC, if it was the TOS-style Mirror Universe in DSC, then I'd agree with you. 100%, I'd agree with you. But it wasn't. Those felt nothing like TOS.

"If Memory Serves" was TOS nostalgia.

SNW is much closer to feeling like TOS than DSC Seasons 1-2 were, so I'd also put that further up on the "nostalgia" scale. Hell, I would put the Kelvin Films higher up on the Nostalgia Scale than Early-Discovery was. The Kelvin Films felt more like the TOS Era than Discovery.

DSC, much as I like it, was an odd series to be a prequel. That's why I was glad it jumped to the 32nd Century.

As far as the whole Canon Debate, it doesn't change what I like. If they officially said the series were in different timelines, my stances on everything set in the TOS Era or Earlier would still be:

TOS --> Love it
ENT --> Don't like it
Kelvin Films --> Ehhh...
DSC S1-S2 --> Love it (same goes for the rest of the series)
SNW --> It's okay

 

[Cr0sis21]

Works for me...

Klingons have a built in excuse to look like Klingons, and still talk of honor and glory and combat.

Honestly, Disco Klingons acted more like Klingons than the ones from TOS ever did.
The only problem with them was the makeup, which was fixed

 

[BillJ]

https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/18/in...pocks-arc-klingon-design-gorn-canon-season-3/

Just looks like more nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, Disco Klingons acted more like Klingons than the ones from TOS ever did.
The only problem with them was the makeup, which was fixed

And make up is a detail, not the important part of the story or character development. And no, before people use the wonderful broad stroke argument of "Well, if Vulcans show up in blue skin and bald heads would you be ok with it?!" Because that's not what has been attempted here. They took bumpy headed Klingons, went a little extreme on the make up, and adjusted it. Has Star Trek done that before? Um, yes. Look at TMP to TSFS-TUC.

All of those are Klingons? Why?

Just looks like more nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.

I believe the term is "respect."

 

[BillJ]

Honestly, Disco Klingons acted more like Klingons than the ones from TOS ever did.

You do realize those are the Klingons, the others are actually the deviations.

 

[Citiprime]

Source? Which continuity is important.
"Mr. Goldman, will you have female captains in SNW?"
"Of course. "
*cue angry mob*

From TrekMovie:

This episode establishes the Gorn as a continuing big bad for the season, or maybe the series. So the question is: why the Gorn who have some tricky canon issues instead of using the opportunity to create your own whole new villain species?

Akiva Goldsman: Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth. So when they can go hand-in-hand, great. But when I was writing the pilot, I was looking for something that was just monstrous, that was Cthulhu-like. Something that was unthinking. Our shows are empathy generators and I wanted to have an element which was in relief of that. I wanted something that you couldn’t identify with, something that was utterly alien, something that was all appetite and instinct in ways that we couldn’t quite understand. And I also wanted to signal place and time in a way that personally I found interesting. So you should definitely blame me for this one.​

ALSO...

With Inverse, Goldsman was even clearer on how they are not planning on resolving the differences between how the Gorn were depicted in [TOS] “Arena.”:

Goldsman: You will never see the Gorn like that. This is the Gorn as we perceive them… This is our version of the Gorn. It’s an interpretation. In the same way, the transporter room on the Enterprise is never gonna look like the transporter room looked in TOS, right? It’s our interpretation of it.​

The SNW version of the Gorn totally replaces and undercuts what happens in TOS. Goldsman's take totally undermines the theme of “Arena.”

That episode was written by Gene Coon, and it shares a similar theme with “The Devil in the Dark,” which Coon also wrote. Part of the twist of “Arena” is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t “unthinking.” They are not monsters, savages, animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They’re people defending their home. Just like the Horta, maybe before she started dissolving miners the Gorn could have tried communicating with the colonists. But the entire episode is about a future humanity being able to have empathy for something alien and recognizing that maybe the entire situation is a giant mistake.

 

[fireproof78]

The SNW version totally replaces and undercuts what happens in TOS. Goldsman's take totally undermines the theme of “Arena.”

Nope. It really doesn't.

This is a ridiculous argument. Why is the one Gorn in Arena "THE GORN!" That's like saying Lebron James is the only version of human acceptable to replicate in dramatization.

The Gorn aren’t “unthinking.”

No, they are savage, brutal and cruel.

 

[HotRod]

On the other hand, I'm seeing evidence that the producers are willing to throw a bone and say that the timeline has changed with such things as the time cops and Khan's age.

I look at that as more of a wink and a nod to the fact thar the entire Trek timeline has been so fucked with over the decades that NOTHING really makes sense. The whole 90's eugenics wars plot point was torpedoed in the late 80's by TNG.

 

[BillJ]

No. When I was looking at the DSC Klingons, the last thing I was thinking of was the '60s Klingons. You might've been thinking about the '60s Klingons, but I wasn't. When I saw the DSC Mirror Universe, the last thing I thought of was the TOS Mirror Universe.

You use that word over and over and over and over again, but you always use it wrong. If it was the TOS Klingons in DSC, if it was the TOS Mirror Universe in DSC, then I'd agree with you. 100%, I'd agree with you. But it wasn't. Those felt nothing like TOS.

They’re all supposed to be the same things and be one big happy timeline.