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Ncuti Gatwa is the 15th Doctor

Well time and space are infinite so i would say the doctor is safe for a few more years. Ha

But yeah i was just watching Pertwee era and in one show we went from a virus killing people in streets to a shootout with unit were the bodies are dropping everywhere.....a family show.........but thank god Jim'll fix it was on after Dr Who on a Saturday night to make us all feel safe again. Lol
 
Plenty of children's stories feature death. The thing of it is not that they can't feature death, but how they depict death.

If you depict death by saying, "A lot of people are dying out there!" and "out there" is off-screen, you can probably do that without traumatizing most kids.

If you depict death by, say, showing the bad guys making a pile of dead bodies against the side of a house a la Come and See, you'll probably run into more problems.
 
Plenty of children's stories feature death. The thing of it is not that they can't feature death, but how they depict death.

If you depict death by saying, "A lot of people are dying out there!" and "out there" is off-screen, you can probably do that without traumatizing most kids.

If you depict death by, say, showing the bad guys making a pile of dead bodies against the side of a house a la Come and See, you'll probably run into more problems.

Pretty much my problem with the Goblin Song.
Doctor Who has at various times been scary, even violent, but it always chose the right way to do it (though the graphic depictions sometimes went too far, and then would course correct) and fundamentally the characters (or victims) were *adults*. That’s a line it was unwise to cross. And why I didn’t watch at Christmas.
 
I thought "The Goblin Song" so absurd, cartoony, and vague (it was pretty much just "What if 'she's so cute I could eat her up,' but literal), it felt like there was no suggestion of actual baby-eating (down to the scene where the "preparation" was scattering some seasonings vaguely around the baby, and the "eating" would've apparently consisted of the baby dropping off a conveyer belt into the mouth of a very puppety-looking monster.

Especially compared to the Beep the Meep song from the Big Finish audios someone linked to after the first special, which is a lot more explicitly and graphically violent, "The Goblin Song" was slightly less horrifying than the "Rockabye Baby" lullaby (the baby falls out of a tree! In their sleep!) or walking into a door painted like a big mouth at a carnival.
 
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Pretty much my problem with the Goblin Song.
Doctor Who has at various times been scary, even violent, but it always chose the right way to do it (though the graphic depictions sometimes went too far, and then would course correct) and fundamentally the characters (or victims) were *adults*. That’s a line it was unwise to cross. And why I didn’t watch at Christmas.

"The Goblin Song" was the very definition of something so ridiculous, over-the-top, and ungraphic as to be unobjectionable.

ETA:

I don't particularly see how "The Goblin Song" was meaningfully different from, say, a Roald Dahl story.
 
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"The Goblin Song" was the very definition of something so ridiculous, over-the-top, and ungraphic as to be unobjectionable.

ETA:

I don't particularly see how "The Goblin Song" was meaningfully different from, say, a Roald Dahl story.

Guessing Children of Earth was not some people's jam here.

Oddly, I don’t think much of ninety percent plus of Dahls stuff either. In fact I think he mainly wrote kids books for the money, and really wanted to be taken more seriously as an ‘adult’ writer as happened later for him to a certain extent. The Rowling of his day, except Potter was actually good.
And it’s a case where it’s not about the visual, but how long the idea itself is lingered on. I have long said that Who lost its ‘family’ reputation quite often in recent years (going back to Capaldi in fact, before we get the usual suppositions for why a person is suddenly anti-who) as indeed did Trek, and in both cases it was a bad creative choice. More so perhaps for Who, which can’t always depend on keeping its home audience into adulthood with as much certainty as Trek perhaps.
I do and did find it offensive, and not in any way in keeping with any of the various permutations of Who I experienced in the last forty-odd years.
The NAs even had better taste than do such nonsense, and they included a sex-worker chewing cola nuts to get the taste of semen out of their mouth. I mean that’s not for kids either, but at least it wasn’t as tasteless. Pun intended. (Though they did make other questionable choices, it was never to the level this was, and besides which they were books on shelves, not an hour of telly on flipping Christmas Day.)

RTD’s redemption tour is just batshit, and not in a good way. (Hey, have a scene where the Moffat run is meta-textually criticised for how it wrote its companions out — but only after undoing the widely criticised ‘exploding head’ Donna scenario…) He’s like JNT, Gary Downie, and Eric Saward, all rolled into one and probably the mirror universe versions at that.


Children Of Earth was an amazing piece of drama when I watched it as a carefree twenty something, I wouldn’t watch it again now as a parent. It was also Torchwood, which by definition has different aims to Who, so that’s its thing. Miracle Day was offensive grim shock shit from the get-go, so I didn’t bother finishing that even when it was new. Torchwood, by definition, was where it was supposed to be edgy — in that twenty first century nihilistic unpleasant manner. So, at least we knew what to expect. (Shit, mostly.)

Problem is, with two years in the can, let’s hope RTD hasn’t managed to repeat the mistakes of the past and hired any sex-pests or allowed any bad practices to go ahead like last time — that’s a lot of ‘content’ to have to suddenly pull if he has. Or that world and its tastes doesn’t shift under his feet with similar problems.

Oddly enough, I did quite enjoy Gladiators being back.

Let’s hope the nineties don’t quite manage a full comeback though — I suspect cancellation and another walk in the wilderness for Who beckons mind you.

Typical Beeb though. Finally get a Black British Actor in the lead, then start fucking it up from day one. Did they learn nothing from Jodie and Chibnall?
 
Oddly, I don’t think much of ninety percent plus of Dahls stuff either. In fact I think he mainly wrote kids books for the money, and really wanted to be taken more seriously as an ‘adult’ writer as happened later for him to a certain extent. The Rowling of his day, except Potter was actually good.
And it’s a case where it’s not about the visual, but how long the idea itself is lingered on.

Children's stories are full of monsters that want to eat them. I don't see what the big deal is or why something so utterly bloodless, something that goes so far out of its way to mediate the horror of the premise, would in any way be problematic for a kids' show.

I have long said that Who lost its ‘family’ reputation quite often in recent years

:cardie:

(going back to Capaldi in fact, before we get the usual suppositions for why a person is suddenly anti-who) as indeed did Trek,

Star Trek was never primarily for children the way Doctor Who is.

The NAs even had better taste than do such nonsense,

I absolutely do not care about what they did in a tie-in novel published a quarter-century ago that five and a half people read.

RTD’s redemption tour is just batshit, and not in a good way. (Hey, have a scene where the Moffat run is meta-textually criticised for how it wrote its companions out — but only after undoing the widely criticised ‘exploding head’ Donna scenario…)

1) This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

2) It is quite the stretch to interpret that as RTD attacking the Moffat era. It would be more reasonable to equate it to Davros's scene in "Journey's End" -- the Toymaker is a villain who seizes upon a legitimate criticism but refuses to present the larger context that mitigates the criticism. Because he is a villain, and the villains in Doctor Who often lie using the truth.

He’s like JNT, Gary Downie, and Eric Saward, all rolled into one and probably the mirror universe versions at that.

Okay.

Let’s hope the nineties don’t quite manage a full comeback though — I suspect cancellation and another walk in the wilderness for Who beckons mind you.

:cardie:
 
Children's stories are full of monsters that want to eat them. I don't see what the big deal is or why something so utterly bloodless, something that goes so far out of its way to mediate the horror of the premise, would in any way be problematic for a kids' show.



:cardie:



Star Trek was never primarily for children the way Doctor Who is.



I absolutely do not care about what they did in a tie-in novel published a quarter-century ago that five and a half people read.



1) This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

2) It is quite the stretch to interpret that as RTD attacking the Moffat era. It would be more reasonable to equate it to Davros's scene in "Journey's End" -- the Toymaker is a villain who seizes upon a legitimate criticism but refuses to present the larger context that mitigates the criticism. Because he is a villain, and the villains in Doctor Who often lie using the truth.



Okay.



:cardie:

(A) pick a lane. You yourself explained the difference between how to, and how not to, ‘traumatise’ younger viewers.
(B) ‘family’ viewing is not the same as ‘for children’.
 
(A) pick a lane. You yourself explained the difference between how to, and how not to, ‘traumatise’ younger viewers.

Yes. And a story where the Doctor and his friend stop a baby from being conveyer-belted into a puppet monster's mouth by singing and dancing, is not going to traumatize young viewers.

(B) ‘family’ viewing is not the same as ‘for children’.

Sure, but that doesn't make Star Trek "family viewing." It was always for teenagers and adults.
 
The Goblin Song was grotesque and hilarious, straight out of Grimm's fairy tales.

It's kind of insane that there's hand-wringing about puppet goblins trying to eat babies.

"Labyrinth" and "The Dark Crystal" are darker and no one's calling them unsuitable for children.

Now if you do want an example of something that did give me nightmares as a kid I give you "Return to Oz".
 
"Labyrinth" and "The Dark Crystal" are darker and no one's calling them unsuitable for children.

Now if you do want an example of something that did give me nightmares as a kid I give you "Return to Oz".

People did. In fact, they were PG. (I saw Oz in the cinema aged about five. I was more fascinated with Tik Tok, and Fairuza Balk, but not every kids the same. He was a magnificent prop in person too.)
PG means parents exercising their common sense, or knowledge of their kid — and rules for cinema were different for telly (Return To Oz was a TV Christmas afternoon fixture, Labyrinth never was. I wonder why that is…)

Older Doctor Who carries a different rating on home media than would be expected, but again different rules apply. (TBH telly usually runs on it being easier to apologise than to ask permission)
Judging appropriately for time slot and intended audience is part of the game though — 7:35 is fine for Curse Of Fenric, but I wouldn’t put that on Christmas Day, nor would I put it in an earlier evening slot. The Capaldi era, for a more modern example, swung darker and was therefore on later. The darkest the Christmas specials got was probably Husbands of River Song. Again — no threat to child characters there though, and plenty of weird context. (Like with Return to Oz, and some Eleventh Doctor stories, the worst it got in that regard was headless characters and still talking separate heads.)

In addition to that, there are careful rules and decisions to be made around *prolonging* any given threat etc. If you have time for an unnecessarily long musical number, you’re probably doing it wrong. Don’t know enough on that in direct correlation to the episode as televised, as I got my ‘Trigger Warning’ just fine from the songs release on YouTube. (and confirmed by clips and reviews afterwards)
So, I didn’t watch.

It’s not for me, and in my educated opinion isn’t really suitable for the typically intended audience either. Other opinions may vary — some parents and adults think Robocop is perfectly fine kids entertainment after all. Some audiences get hand wringing over nudity in BBC Dramas, some are quite happy with a light spot of irrelevant to the story buggering. Fortunately neither of these have been in Doctor Who. (And whilst I am mostly thinking of Giri/Haji, it’s fair to say Torchwood has plenty of both.)

Will I try again when the series proper returns? Maybe. But I am seeing no ‘pull’ factors beyond my lifelong Who fandom. It got me to bother with coming back to Capaldi (which paid off) and even to Jodie (can’t say Whittaker without thinking of David instead, Who fans have two methods of era definition at least) who… was poorly served, as were the audience.

The tone-deaf handling of ‘issues’ and what have you really pushes me away to be honest, not to mention other little things and not just the weird costuming decisions. (Trans people are not the magical result of Timelord magic juju, non-binary doesn’t mean what they think it does, there’s nothing wrong with being male or female or NB, etc, and dear god how fumbled was that ‘bigeneration’ into *not* making a Black British Actor the de-facto Doctor *again* and keeping your safe option handy. Not to mention Donna’s line about colours. Fucks sake.)

They aren’t making the show for the intended audience (families) anymore, and I don’t think they actually understand the nature of the show at its core (it changes, but at its core it is stable across 50 odd years) nor do they understand he power and purpose of its wider genre. (Good SF doesn’t preach to the choir, it allows its audience to question things and maybe nudge in the direction of possible answers) Moffat handled things much better, frankly, in every regard.

What little I have seen of Ncuti hasn’t hit me as ‘Doctor’ but has hit me as ‘RTD Character’ which is not the same thing alas.
 
There's definitely this misconception--perhaps born out of broad marketing and categorization by various parties over the decades--that family entertainment=kid entertainment, when that really isn't the case. Kids can watch it, but it isn't made entirely for them. Like the original G rating in Hollywood, family entertainment can still contain content (like violence, mild swearing, and even suggestive themes) that some parents might not want for children yet.

Personally, I was shocked that Donald Duck generally walked around with no trousers or even underwear, It's absolutely shameful, but that's just me...
 
The Specials were absolutely family entertainment, as the high ratings have shown.

Like using box office to evaluate the artistic merit of a film, those two things aren’t really related. Mr.Bates vs The Post Office had massive numbers, but isn’t family entertainment by dint of likely being of no interest to your average nine year old. Gladiators is family entertainment, albeit rather sporty, and got better numbers than Who on the overnights.
‘Suitable for children to watch’ (with their families) is not the same as ‘made for children’ in much the same way that whilst many things may be made that are not ‘unsuitable’ for children, they are not necessarily ‘suited’ to them either.
Doctor Who from its inception was designed/intended for a wide family audience. And produced by the drama dept, not children’s. It was expected however, to be watched by them. Historically, the further it gets from that, the worse it does. On TV at least. The NA and EDA did everything Who on TV is (still doing even now) only made a better job of it, and judged its audience better.

Who is mainstream geek culture viewing at best now, and the general public seems to be less interested than it was. That’s alright though — the production team don’t seem to actually be all that fussed about much of it either, since we celebrated the Sixtieth Anniversary of David Tennant and Catherine Tate, and that original creator Russell The Davies. Astonishing.
There were actually more broadcast minutes and hours dedicated to the show in its thirtieth anniversary year *when it had been essentially cancelled* than in its sixtieth, and it was more varied too.

Utterly scandalous, I tell you. And don't get me started on those Teletubbies--I never trusted them and never will...

Crashed spaceship, conscious Sun, surveillance tech, and *they live under a grassy knoll’.
Checks out man, checks out.
 
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