12 MONKEYS is definitely worth trying again. Superb series. (And I say this as someone who is sick of time travel.)
The character work and chemistry with the cast in 12 MONKEYS is outstanding.
Poll Season Three: The Search For Causation
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12 MONKEYS is definitely worth trying again. Superb series. (And I say this as someone who is sick of time travel.)
The character work and chemistry with the cast in 12 MONKEYS is outstanding.
As well as one of the best examples of making a plan in advance and executing the details perfectly.
Where did you get snagged exactly?
If it involves time travel who knows how it it works?
That's why I generally avoid it now.
It was awhile back. If I recall, it didn't seem they were clear on whether it was all predestination paradox or whether the timeline could be rewritten, and things weren't adding up for me. I believe it changed show-runners after S1, and I felt it didn't have a vision or plan, and never went back. I'm mid S1 somewhere.
Oh, they were very clear on the predestination paradox -- the characters in season 1 don't know the rules yet, but the writers do. Admittedly, season 1 is the weakest of the 4 seasons and IMO season 2 is where it becomes the show it wants to be but it needed season 1 to build the foundations and rules of time travel. Things hit their stride especially when Jennifer gets more involved with Team Splinter and let me tell you, I didn't expect to love Deacon in fact, I was against it. But by the end of the show Jennifer and Deacon become my favorite* (I like Shaw but Shaw has nothing on Deacon).
But 12 Monkeys knows its rules, on a recent rewatch as I was watching an episode of the last season, I decided to watch an episode in season 1 and I was hit with a lightning bolt when I realized that the thing in season 4 was set up and comes back around to season 1.
*(Honestly though my main favorite in terms of complexity messiness, and sheer bloody-mindedness is a tie between Jones and Cassie -- who undergoes a huge change in arc. It's amazing.)
Aside from the writing, I also have to credit the music and the editing, without the editing for 12 Monkeys, it would be more difficult to understand but the editing wins in a way that no matter what time they end up with I know what's happening. Also, this show's foreshadowing, callbacks, and call forwards are just great. Sorry for raving about the show in this thread but I just wish more people knew about this show.
I think i will continue to pass, then. I DESPISE predistination paraodoxes, and can back-solve some of them; i don't believe in them, I don't think they exist, they instantly turn me off in a time travel story. But, thats also my point, because I clearly remember a season 1 episode that featured timeline rewrites. (episode 6, according to wiki.) I'm glad you have a show that you love. Thats how I felt about Fringe.
Well, I do get that YMMV. Their whole thing is escaping from the cycle of predestination but I'll stop talking about it now, I just wanted to share how beautifully crafted the story is from character to plot development. I also loved Fringe from way back when although I haven't revisited it in years.
To return to Picard S3 -- In a lot of ways, the other reason why I loved Picard S3 is because of how it's a love letter to the franchise as a whole. I also like how they ended some of the arcs that started in season 1 -- One of them being Tori and Riker. I loved their episode in Nepenthe but I also love the further exploration of that grief in season 3, I do think the writers could stand to mention Kestra more than just once.
One thing really cool about 12M as well is that time is essentially a character.
I really liked seasons 2 and 3, but couldn't get over the quasi-reset button in season 4.
I did appreciate the follow up from season 1, showing the strong way two emotions cam be true at once. People take it as a retcon, but personally, the Riker/Troi story was really well done, and one I found strongly resonant with me.
Great. It was written by Annorax.
I really love that part too. I’ve been rewatching 12 Monkeys and it still holds up so well, there’s always something new I pickup every rewatch; (For example, the music that plays through Olivia’s end, actually plays through every time she’s introduced and its so great how the bootstrap paradox worked. How things change and not change. Also, the show has some sweet, sweet writerly lines.
Agreed, and I’m so goad they had taken the time to speak about and address their issues. As Marina Sirtis said, it was a miracle Troi and Riker stayed together after losing Thad because statistically most couples who lose a child separate.
Understandable when not seeing the whole picture.
The entire show was an effort to stop the S5 invasion. S1 was already in a time loop of sorts. The alt-universe war was a red herring. Bell, David Robert Jones, and ZFT were always a "necessary evil" to wake up Olivia's abilities and get her trained to complete the mission against the Observers. In S3 the wrong child was born to the wrong Olivia, which dislodged the S5 plans that required there to be a daughter, not a son, necessitating the reset to get things back on track, but that also includes reactivating Olivia again and following the S1 blueprint again. The entire thing was genius.
That being said, could 12M also be a time loop, not a predestination paradox? Just a number of iterations into the loop where we don't know how it started in the original timeline?
The original movie and the downer endings of predestination paradoxes, where everything you do to try to stop something is actually what causes it to happen, is cheap and frustrating and pointless from a narrative standpoint imo....
The original movie and the downer endings of predestination paradoxes, where everything you do to try to stop something is actually what causes it to happen, is cheap and frustrating and pointless from a narrative standpoint imo....
Well, that's the thing about the film...Cole's mission is never to prevent the virus from being released, but to try to save the future. The ending is intended to imply that he was successful, so not ultimately a downer.
Nothing wrong with hoping he'll stop the virus from being released, of course, but given that that would itself create a paradox, a hope is all it can be.
Gilliam's pretty straight with the audience about all this, even if the characters and some viewers may not want or choose to accept what he lays out from the beginning.
Nothing wrong with hoping he'll stop the virus from being released, of course, but given that that would itself create a paradox, a hope is all it can be.
Gilliam's pretty straight with the audience about all this, even if the characters and some viewers may not want or choose to accept what he lays out from the beginning.
It's possible I misunderstood the meaning of predestination paradox because the 12 Monkeys tv show is a time loop with many iterations, changing slowly until they fix the problem. Just like you said with Fringe seeing the whole picture, it is the same with 12 Monkeys the show.
I've never seen 12 Monkeys the movie so I can't comment on it. From what I gather from Matalas's stories -- he likes putting characters through the wringer but his stories are ultimately hopeful and romantic, in both the old sense of the word and the current meaning of romance. It's also unexpectedly fun! Like, in the middle of the last two seasons, I didn't expect to have heist episodes and one truly cracky episode in the last season that is both fun and moved the plot and characters.
Fun fact, according to one of the interviews Terry did for 12 Monkeys, it wasn't originally supposed to be connected to the movie, its a wholly original concept but SyFy wanted them to use 12 Monkeys since they had the IP for it. So, reluctantly, they had to reform the story -- I think that's where the season 1 shagginess comes from.
Connecting it to Picard -- I do love the Easter egg of the Ferengi and Vulcan crime brothers, it's a gesture towards Ramse and Cole as brothers who grew up together in West 7. I hope we get to see more Kirk Acevado's Krinn-- I was genuinely intrigued by the prospect of a Vulcan crime boss and I love his portrayal of Krinn. (I was first made aware of Acevado on Fringe, and admittedly one of the reasons why I checked on 12 Monkeys).
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12M the series has some fun Easter Eggs to the film, but it's a very different story with just some early parallels attached. I'd recommend to anyone wanting to check out the series to avoid the film, or if you're super curious, wait until the end of the series.
I'll watch The 12 Monkeys again soon. I already have the Blu-Ray of the complete series.
But first I'm working my way through re-watching Voyager in preparation for Legacy. I'll re-watch DS9 as well, but I figured it made more sense to start with VOY since Seven's going to be the Captain. Plus, I'm finding out there's a lot from the Delta Quadrant they could go back to, if they choose to go that way. I'm up to Season 6. I'll give a full list of what I think might be worth revisiting from VOY when I'm done.
So the order I'm going in is: Voyager, 12 Monkeys again, then DS9.
"What about TNG?" I already re-watched that in 2019, before Picard. Plus I'm currently watching some YouTube Reactors react to TNG. So that's kind-of sort-of already another re-watch.
But first I'm working my way through re-watching Voyager in preparation for Legacy. I'll re-watch DS9 as well, but I figured it made more sense to start with VOY since Seven's going to be the Captain. Plus, I'm finding out there's a lot from the Delta Quadrant they could go back to, if they choose to go that way. I'm up to Season 6. I'll give a full list of what I think might be worth revisiting from VOY when I'm done.
So the order I'm going in is: Voyager, 12 Monkeys again, then DS9.
"What about TNG?" I already re-watched that in 2019, before Picard. Plus I'm currently watching some YouTube Reactors react to TNG. So that's kind-of sort-of already another re-watch.
I'd suggest watching the webisodes after the season 2 finale, even if they're on a different disc. There are some pretty cool deleted scenes to look forward to as well!
It might be interesting to try and squeeze in a PS2 rewatch just after finishing your 12M rewatch.
Grew up on TNG, did not consider Picard S3 the best. I can't say I cared much for any season of Picard, but Season 3 was strike three, I'm out! I don't want to see any more about Picard, or Jack or Loris, or Q yet again for some reason, and I think I'm done with everything this series had to offer except Worf. Dorn always knocks it out of the park and I think he did a really good job playing an older version of his character compared to everyone else. Seven and Raffi were fine but I'm not interested in seeing the adventures of the the Ent-G if it's driven by the same people who did Season 3.
Sums it up nicely.
I grew up with TNG and it is my favorite Trek (just ahead of TOS and DS9).
But my first exposure was TOS in reruns.
S3 is the best Picard season, and it is not particularly close. S1 silver. S2 Bronze.
But my first exposure was TOS in reruns.
S3 is the best Picard season, and it is not particularly close. S1 silver. S2 Bronze.
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