Poll Season Three: The Search For Causation

[James Cole]

My biggest criticism of the "nostalgia " is because nothing feels earned. It's putting all the pieces back like little has changed in the lives of the characters and ends with a poker game.

It has elements that grows from events in universe, but ultimately, by the end, the characters become more static. And the villain reveal feels very recycled. So, while LD is more transparent in their use of familiar pieces it at least feels very change driven.

I mean, you could say the same thing about the TOS films. TOS is set in the space 60's... TWOK-TFF in the mid 80's, and TUC in the early 90's. Those characters are far more stagnant, but at least you have an in-universe explanation as to why that happened.

The character with the most change is Sulu, who leaves to command the Excelsior, and is later established in GEN to have a daughter.

Riker and Troi were already claimed by PS1. Aside from them...

Crusher has a son with Picard and goes into hiding. Worf leaves the Enterprise-E and becomes involved with Starfleet Intelligence. LaForge becomes a commodore heading the fleet museum and has two daughters.

Data was going to be resurrected somehow anyway following NEM. PS3 takes an approach very similar to the novelverse.

At best, PS3 is guilty of not killing off a main character just because they could.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I got into Trek through my Dad and my 4 brothers when I was 5; we would watch TOS together. While 2 of my brothers drifted in Star Trek, my Dad and my oldest & 2nd to him continued to watch Trek during the early 2000's. As for PICARD season 3, there's too much remember berries for my taste, borrowing heavy on TWOK's plotline dealing with Picard's son & Crusher was the mother was an eye roller. There was too much digging from the past, with the Dominion and another season with the Borg, killed any enthusiasm for the series since I thought there was so much a series could do with my beloved Captain and his ragtag crew which were non existent after season 2.

I don't think the final season of PICARD was any better than the previous one, its fluff storytelling and can't take anything done seriously, like the rest of the CBS ALLACCESS Treks they're a 1 time watch for me. At least the SFX is really good, I think that was what most of the fans of these things are attracted to anyway because the stories are dull.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, you could say the same thing about the TOS film

I do.

But, that's beside the point, at least around here, since I am told that just because past Trek did it doesn't make it ok here.

As for changes, yeah, they had some and it amounts to little. They all end up back in the Enterprise. That's the nostalgia bait I find unappetizing.

 

[Lord Garth]

My biggest criticism of the "nostalgia " is because nothing feels earned. It's putting all the pieces back like little has changed in the lives of the characters and ends with a poker game.

Nope.

We see during the third season that they're ALL in different places than they were. ALL OF THEM. That was also true of who we did see in the first season as well.

The entire season 10 episodes. T-E-N. 10 episodes before the VERY END where they're playing poker in the second-to-last scene. After 10 episodes. "Hasn't been earned"? If they were all playing cards in the very first scene of the third season like nothing had changed, then that would be "Hasn't been earned!"

Try again.

As for changes, yeah, they had some and it amounts to little. They all end up back in the Enterprise. That's the nostalgia bait I find unappetizing.

End. Key word: END. The last episode-and-a-bit. And they don't even stay on the Enterprise-D permanently.

As for changes, yeah, they had some and it amounts to little.

Picard's at the Vineyard. Still. Before he finds out he has a fully-grown son he never knew about.

Riker and Troi are living the Married Life.

Crusher's entire life was changed. Lie and say she was exactly the same but she wasn't. Living out on the fringes while raising Jack was anything BUT the status quo.

Worf working for Starfleet Intelligence and dealing with the underground. Oh, yeah. Definitely the same as TNG.

Geordi at a Museum, not Chief Engineer of a ship. Makes sense for his line of work, but it's not the same exact thing. And he's a father. In TNG he couldn't get a date to save his life. How is that the same?

Data. He's finally flesh-and-blood.

 

[Lord Garth]

PS3 definitely has problems. The dark lighting, the swearing, the mystery box format... but those are all basically "yes, and..." ones, whereas the "nostalgia" one is more confusing for me. It seems pretty organic to the plot is a natural evolution to what was established in the 1980s-2000s. Whereas STLD is much more shameless about pulling the memberberry card without having it be an organic in universe evolution.

In retrospect, I found out the answer here back in the late-'00s in the lead-up to the first Abrams Film when the question was posed: "Would you want to see a return to the Prime Timeline?". I have to do some digging later on, hopefully the thread I'm thinking of wasn't pruned, but it was all right there, over 15 years ago. [EDITED TO ADD: Never mind. Looks like it probably was pruned. Or it's just too lost at sea.]

My answer was that I wanted a reboot (bear in mind I wanted a reboot similar to what BSG had, NOT what the Abrams Films did) but I also wasn't against them continuing on in the old timeline if it was under a different creative team.

[Incidentally, the BSG vibe is part of why I really liked the first season of Discovery in particular so much. But anyway... ]

They, on the other hand, didn't want to go back to the old continuity or pick up from where any of those storylines left off at all. They don't care if it makes sense or not. They don't care if it's natural or not. They don't want it. The Abrams Films were basically a reboot (other than Leonard Nimoy's appearance). Early-DSC and SNW are reboots masquerading as prequels. PIC was a sequel but Season 1 was looking at Starfleet from the outside and at a distance, while Season 2 took place mostly in the 21st Century. So it's really Season 3 that's the first time -- in live-action -- that Star Trek went back into the world of Starfleet in the TNG Era full on. Then the whole "We don't want Old Trek!!!" fervor snapped back in FULL FORCE.

Even though Season 3 -- just like Seasons 1 and 2 -- isn't shot the same as Star Trek was during the Berman Era, isn't lit the same, isn't written the same, isn't acted the same, has different production values, isn't afraid to have swearing, and (very much unlike the Berman Era) isn't afraid to acknowledge Earth culture after 1950-something. So, basically, not as much like the Berman Era as they want to make it sound like. They're not focusing on the whole picture. They're just looking at, "Oh no! It's the memberberries!"

 

[fireproof78]

Picard's at the Vineyard. Still. Before he finds out he has a fully-grown son he never knew about.

Riker and Troi are living the Married Life.

Crusher's entire life was changed. Lie and say she was exactly the same but she wasn't. Living out on the fringes while raising Jack was anything BUT the status quo.

Worf working for Starfleet Intelligence and dealing with the underground. Oh, yeah. Definitely the same as TNG.

Geordi at a Museum, not Chief Engineer of a ship. Makes sense for his line of work, but it's not the same exact thing. And he's a father. In TNG he couldn't get a date to save his life. How is that the same?

Data. He's finally flesh-and-blood.

As I said, they changed but it feels like it amounts to little. They're still the "crew of the Enterprise, " like that is all they're good at.

We see during the third season that they're ALL in different places than they were. ALL OF THEM. That was also true of who we did see in the first season as well.

Season 1felt like thse changes were more substantial to them moving on.

Season 3 feels like they had to get back to the Enterprise to have meaning.

That's my issue with the nostalgia. Early on, Season 3 was great. The differences made a difference. By the end? All the action figures were back on the bridge.

It was good. Then it was average.

 

[James Cole]

Early-DSC and SNW are reboots masquerading as prequels.

I've never heard it put so succinctly!

 

[Tuskin38]

and TATV (quietly) being retconned out of existence.

No it wasn't?

Early-DSC and SNW are reboots

Nah, they're not.

 

[Phoenix219]

How's that?

i was curious about this as well.

wondered if there was something quiet in the background, like Kirk and the G2 torpedo, that fixes major earlier problems.

 

[FederationHistorian]

No it wasn't?

What do you think the NX-Reift at the Fleet Museum was?

Nah, they're not.

Depends on your perspective.

 

[HotRod]

What do you think the NX-Reift at the Fleet Museum was?

Throughout the entirety of the series finale, we didn't get a single exterior shot of the NX-01. The only exception being its appearance in the final montage of Enterprises, which can very easily been seen as being outside the context of the episode.

With its appearance in Picard, we now know we were indeed seeing the interior of the NX-01 Refit.

Depends on your perspective.

Not really. They're not reboots.

 

[Tosk]

What do you think the NX-Reift at the Fleet Museum was?

Can you please explain to me like I was five how the refit NX-01 in PIC supposedly retcons TATV?

 

[Reanok]

I really liked season 3 it was all a TNG fan could ask for. I was glad to see Beverly Crusher return and the story arc with Jack Crusher and the mystery evolves in all 10 episodes. Terry Matalas did an excellent job with the last season . I wish we'd geta Star Trek Legacy series with Seven of mine and Jack Crusher and other TNG characters returning like Will Rikar and Deanna Troi and Beverly Crusher again. And Data or Soji returning too.

 

[Tuskin38]

What do you think the NX-Reift at the Fleet Museum was?

The VFX team throwing a bone to Doug Drexler. Or Doug Drexler throwing a bone to himself.

Either way, I'm not sure how that retcons TATV out of existence.

 

[trekshark]

It was sometimes fan wank, but I loved it

 

[DonIago]

It seems clear from the poll at this point (at least as clear as such a poll can be) that nostalgia is an outsize factor in how one regards S3 relative to the rest of the series.

 

[grimorie]

Probably, I guess I'm one of the outlier who loves Picard Season 3, who didn't grow-up with TNG, I did watch the movies but Voyager and DS9 were more my Trek. I am also a big fan of Terry Matalas because of his work in 12 Monkeys, which IMO is the best time travel show I've watched.

 

[DonIago]

I'd say I grew up with TOS re-runs. I was too young to see TMP in the theater, but saw the subsequent films when they were released. When TNG came out I was only 12 but, as evidenced, already had a healthy grounding in the franchise. DS9 remains my favorite of the franchise. I was curious about 12 Monkeys, having greatly enjoyed the Gilliam film, but I never quite heard enough positive buzz about it to seek it out, and I was worried that I wouldn't appreciate the changes from the source material.

There were aspects of S3 I enjoyed, but it really disappointed me that the show essentially ended up betraying everything that had initially made it a unique if not loved entry in the franchise. It reminds me very much of how The Last Jedi did some interesting things with the Star Wars franchise that Rise of Skywalker then seemed intent on ignoring if not outright reverting.

 

[Phoenix219]

Probably, I guess I'm one of the outlier who loves Picard Season 3, who didn't grow-up with TNG, I did watch the movies but Voyager and DS9 were more my Trek. I am also a big fan of Terry Matalas because of his work in 12 Monkeys, which IMO is the best time travel show I've watched.

i gave up in the 1st season. worth revisiting? (12 monkeys)

it didn't seem to have a clear vision for how exactly time travel was working.

 

[DonIago]

i gave up in the 1st season. worth revisiting? (12 monkeys)

it didn't seem to have a clear vision for how exactly time travel was working.

"Science isn't an exact science..." (line from the film)