Poll Season Three: The Search For Causation
- Thread starter DonIago
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Let me ask you a simple question: how to you force treatment? If someone is offered treatment and refuses to take it, then the next step is to detain them to keep them from harming themselves.
Now, you're right that things might have changed in the next couple of centuries, including ethical standards for mental health providers. But, that still leaves you with a person who does not want treatment, does not think they need it, and will not comply with recommendations. So, you either leave them alone, or force them to accept treatment.
As I said, I wonder if Tantalus is still around at the time, or perhaps the facility the Jack Pack were at?
We don't know enough about how things were there to know what other options might have been available, but I don't know why you're boiling this down to a binary situation where Picard's mother either must want and pursue treatment or must not be coerced into treatment and must be locked in her room. Are you a mental health professional? Did Picard Senior make any effort to speak with mental health professionals to get advice? Do we think any reasonable mental health professional would say, "Well, the best thing you can do for her is to lock her away?"
Yes.
Reasonable? Probably not. Certainly I know of some unreasonable ones who have made less than helpful suggestions.
I'm not saying what Picard Sr. did was right. I'm saying that choices were limited since she refused treatment.
I saw bits of TNG when I was a kid, but not enough to really remember it. I think my first true memory is of it, now that I’m watching TNG because of Picard S3 was I, Borg. And I think the episode when Worf and Troi started dating? The first true Trek I was in and invested in was Voyager. And the whole reason why I watched Picard was for Seven of Nine.
(I did watch the movies but they didn’t really stick enough in my head to leave an impression except that I really like the cast).
And, yes, I think Picard S3 is the best season of Picard, because its more my jam. I love the pacing of the story, the character interactions. This doesn’t mean I hated the first two seasons, in fact I love the quiet scenes in season 1, and the cinematography. Its just Picard S3 is more of my speed, on a ship with a crew, with the kind of pacing I love.
(I did watch the movies but they didn’t really stick enough in my head to leave an impression except that I really like the cast).
And, yes, I think Picard S3 is the best season of Picard, because its more my jam. I love the pacing of the story, the character interactions. This doesn’t mean I hated the first two seasons, in fact I love the quiet scenes in season 1, and the cinematography. Its just Picard S3 is more of my speed, on a ship with a crew, with the kind of pacing I love.
If they were on an official date, that's actually the final episode.
I grew up with TNG. No, S3 was not the best season of PIC. To me, S3 is just S1 but with a TNG coat of paint, wrapped in a TOS movie, where Data isn’t dead at the end. And I never grew up fantasying about a TNG movie in the style of a TOS movie. If the S1 cast was in the place of the TNG cast, it would not be well received by those currently praising it, imo. A lot of S3 is dependent on nostalgia.
S3 is still liked for the DS9 callbacks, the Tuvok cameo, and TATV (quietly) being retconned out of existence. And basically fixing a lot of messes from the Berman era, an era I do like overall. But its not my top season.
S1 at least tried to tell an original story and do new things with the universe.
S3 is still liked for the DS9 callbacks, the Tuvok cameo, and TATV (quietly) being retconned out of existence. And basically fixing a lot of messes from the Berman era, an era I do like overall. But its not my top season.
S1 at least tried to tell an original story and do new things with the universe.
Pretty well sums it up.
It uses Trek's greatest hits while using the new style of storytelling. It succeeds largely on appealing to what people think they want from Trek, while overlooking the flaws.
I suppose — like I also liked season 1 but the story they were telling was longer than the 10 episodes it had to run with. I do love the quiet moments at the end of season 1. But, there really wasn’t enough runway to tell the story they wanted especially with Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman’s mandate each season of Picard has to be its own story.
I prefer season 3 because, while its not original, and it wasn’t proposing to be — it had one vision from the start — it was going to be the send off the TNG crew needed after Nemesis (not the series because, from what I understand it, it was the best series finale from 90s Trek). And a hand-off to the next, next generation in the branch of 90s Trek, into a new crew. And I felt they delivered on that, this is the last flight of Enterprise D. I’m very okay and comfortable with the idea, because it is a goodbye.
Also, I suppose this season spoke to my Trek tastes more and its more consistent in quality IMO but I do acknowledge there’s also flaws they probably needed a week on more polishing scripts from episodes 6 on. But I also get the production clock can be an unforgiving beast.
I prefer season 3 because, while its not original, and it wasn’t proposing to be — it had one vision from the start — it was going to be the send off the TNG crew needed after Nemesis (not the series because, from what I understand it, it was the best series finale from 90s Trek). And a hand-off to the next, next generation in the branch of 90s Trek, into a new crew. And I felt they delivered on that, this is the last flight of Enterprise D. I’m very okay and comfortable with the idea, because it is a goodbye.
Also, I suppose this season spoke to my Trek tastes more and its more consistent in quality IMO but I do acknowledge there’s also flaws they probably needed a week on more polishing scripts from episodes 6 on. But I also get the production clock can be an unforgiving beast.
How's that?
I just want to add a wrinkle to the data. I actually like Picard better than TNG.
So, no the TNG Cast is NOT what sealed the deal for me. It was that it was being done in the style of a TOS Movie. "TNG done in the style of a TOS Movie" is a combination we'd never seen before and it had me intrigued. I wanted to see how that would mix together. On top of the fact that I already liked Picard to begin with.
[EDITED TO ADD: Let me put it another way for people who still aren't getting it. Say the TOS Movies are Red and TNG is Blue. We've seen Red, we've seen Blue, but combining the two gives you Purple. Star Trek hadn't done Purple yet. I was excited to see how Purple would come out.]
I miss the original PIC Cast, but not seeing them all back isn't the end of the world. They'll probably turn up again in some future story if the situation calls for it.
Star Trek relying on prequels was the nostalgia. "Let's go back to before TOS! Let's redo TOS! Let's see how it all leads into TOS!" And I can't believe the hypocrisy of people who say PIC Season 3 is bad because it's "nostalgia" and then turn around and say, "I can't wait to see Kirk meet Spock in Strange New Worlds!" Do you guys even hear yourselves? Do you not see the hypocrisy there? Do you all not see the double-standard?
It wouldn't be so bad if all of you weren't beating us over the head non-stop about nostalgia in PIC Season 3 while completely ignoring it in SNW or pretending it's something else when it's not.
I like both Season 1 and Season 3 just about equally. I like Season 3 a tiny, tiny, tiny bit more but that's because I like it being done in the style of a TOS Movie. The TNG Cast helps, but the idea of doing like a TOS Movie is what really sold me on the concept. If it had been the TNG Cast back together again doing in the style of a TNG Movie, then I'd be like "No, fuck that!" One good movie out of four didn't cut it for me the first time and I wouldn't have wanted to see more of that again, TNG Cast or not.
So, no the TNG Cast is NOT what sealed the deal for me. It was that it was being done in the style of a TOS Movie. "TNG done in the style of a TOS Movie" is a combination we'd never seen before and it had me intrigued. I wanted to see how that would mix together. On top of the fact that I already liked Picard to begin with.
[EDITED TO ADD: Let me put it another way for people who still aren't getting it. Say the TOS Movies are Red and TNG is Blue. We've seen Red, we've seen Blue, but combining the two gives you Purple. Star Trek hadn't done Purple yet. I was excited to see how Purple would come out.]
I miss the original PIC Cast, but not seeing them all back isn't the end of the world. They'll probably turn up again in some future story if the situation calls for it.
That's what happens when it's following up on something that ended two decades ago. If they hadn't been doing nothing but prequels from 2001 until 2020 (except for Nemesis in 2002 and the far-future-set "Calypso" in 2018), then the stuff Picard followed up on would've been more recent.
Star Trek relying on prequels was the nostalgia. "Let's go back to before TOS! Let's redo TOS! Let's see how it all leads into TOS!" And I can't believe the hypocrisy of people who say PIC Season 3 is bad because it's "nostalgia" and then turn around and say, "I can't wait to see Kirk meet Spock in Strange New Worlds!" Do you guys even hear yourselves? Do you not see the hypocrisy there? Do you all not see the double-standard?
It wouldn't be so bad if all of you weren't beating us over the head non-stop about nostalgia in PIC Season 3 while completely ignoring it in SNW or pretending it's something else when it's not.
At least we agree about that.
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Actually, I never wanted to see Kirk in SNW. So I’m not sure what your talking about here?
Not you, in general. Sorry about that.
I just think the bashing of PIC Season 3 is so one-note. After months and months and months, on behalf of other fans of PIC Season 3 I can tell the detractors, "Yes! We heard you all the first 100 million times!" Try to put yourself in our place.
If nostalgia is the worst thing that can be leveled against Picard Season 3, if that's the best everyone who doesn't like it can come up with, then I think it's not in a bad place.
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I think many people can agree that the Berman-era stagnation was brought about by forcing things into production too quickly, UPN putting a straightjacket on how the final two series could evolve, and the TNG films having far more executive interference than anything on the TV side. What makes the TOS films so different from TOS proper are the characters having 15-20 years of evolution in between. The TNG films couldn't even commit to Data having the emotion chip.
If it was just "nostalgia" that sold me, I'd be the world's number one fan of STLD. PS3 works because the characters and format evolve but still feel of a piece with the Berman era.
Maybe it's the soft reboot vs hard continuation?
It's also the same mystery box style that is often complained about of Season 1 and Discovery but accepted easier.
I like Season 3 well enough but calling it best or a continuation of TNG? Pass.
Yeah. I think the 20-year-gap benefitted Picard the same way that the 10-year-gap benefitted the TOS Movies.
But these people don't see it because they're stuck in one gear and one gear only. I think they're not getting it on purpose.
There's a little bit more to it than that, but essentially yes.
I mean, I'm pretty sure we vehemently disagree on DISCOVERY and PS1... but you've always been open about why those would likely prove divisive among the fanbase.
PS3 definitely has problems. The dark lighting, the swearing, the mystery box format... but those are all basically "yes, and..." ones, whereas the "nostalgia" one is more confusing for me. It seems pretty organic to the plot is a natural evolution to what was established in the 1980s-2000s. Whereas STLD is much more shameless about pulling the memberberry card without having it be an organic in universe evolution.
My biggest criticism of the "nostalgia " is because nothing feels earned. It's putting all the pieces back like little has changed in the lives of the characters and ends with a poker game.
It has elements that grows from events in universe, but ultimately, by the end, the characters become more static. And the villain reveal feels very recycled. So, while LD is more transparent in their use of familiar pieces it at least feels very change driven.
I appreciate Season 3, but I can't put it high up, though it surpasses the TNG films for me.
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