A Brief Timeline of Ancient Interstellar Civilizations

[oberth]

I think this is a case where I think the Q believe their own dogma. I just don't believe they came into being with the existence of the universe.

Here's a question I've had about the Voth since the day the episode aired.

I know this is science fiction. So sometimes you just have to go with it, but is it in any way possible that a highly-developed technological civilization could have existed on Earth 65-million years ago and there would be absolutely no evidence of their existence in the present? No artifacts in the geological record?

They never launched geo-sync satellites that would still be in orbit? They never built structures on the Moon or Mars? Stuff like this is why I always thought the episode might twist at the end and Earth would be revealed as NOT the origin of the Voth. Maybe they originate from one of those duplicate Earth planets the Enterprise found in TOS ("Miri").

Because if an Earth origin for the Voth is possible then Aquaman and the lost city of Atlantis should be possible too.

i never saw a problem there (disclaimer: it's one of my favourite episodes in all trek)

• satelites would be gone by now due to decaying orbits (is a geosync orbit geosync for a million years, let alone 65)?
• we went to the moon because we had a cold war. i see no reason why they had one
• they saw it coming but they saw it early - looking what is there was more importand then going anywhere
• let's just say they had bad luck and lived where that comet hit
• the built a few ship as a last ditch rescue attempt and only packed in their best and brightest

... and now the adventure starts

• their ships were sublight
• a couple of crash landings on not so good planets so they can't stay
• a big crash landing that cost them two million years

... and then there's the big one

we just haven't found anything yet !!

 

[Tuskin38]

They never launched geo-sync satellites that would still be in orbit?

Even Geo-sync satellites will eventually fall.

 

[Arpy]

I agree. When the writer wrote that line about humans not yet standing erect, you'd have to assume they either researched that or simply made it up. Either way I have no idea which it is. Regardless, 2 million sounds way too long ago and 7 million?? Yikes.

I do agree that Bajorans have a far-reaching and storied history but I'm not prepared to go that far back.

However, this is TrekBBS so putting far too much thought into something is par for the course here.

Yeah it’s not overthinking to take the line at face value. Someone watching it for the first time is going to think 7 million years and leave it at that. Someone watching it at the time is going to think 500,000 years and do the same. Either number should give one pause. It did to me when I watched it as a kid first run. Either way, if you’re going to choose to think about it, you have to come up with a reason for what happened during all that time.

If not for them then the Voth who’ve been around for 65 million years, 20 million of which is recorded.

 

[oberth]

Yeah it’s not overthinking to take the line at face value. Someone watching it for the first time is going to think 7 million years and leave it at that. Someone watching it at the time is going to think 500,000 years and do the same. Either number should give one pause. It did to me when I watched it as a kid first run. Either way, if you’re going to choose to think about it, you have to come up with a reason for what happened during all that time.

If not for them then the Voth who’ve been around for 65 million years, 20 million of which is recorded.

but then a young earth creationist reads it and says: 'come on, it's only 6,000 years'

 

[Arpy]

I think this is a case where I think the Q believe their own dogma. I just don't believe they came into being with the existence of the universe.

I actually found that a super intriguing part of an otherwise disastrous episode. They’re not aliens like everyone else, they’re almost forces of nature, and so that makes one wonder what that says about nature…it’s like enter Einstein and a new concept of time and space, of nature and the Universe. Are they even what we think they are?

I know this is science fiction. So sometimes you just have to go with it, but is it in any way possible that a highly-developed technological civilization could have existed on Earth 65-million years ago and there would be absolutely no evidence of their existence in the present? No artifacts in the geological record?

65 million years is a long time. And they are basically aliens with different ways/course of evolution compared to us. Who knows what their technology and Earth were like? Maybe it all biodegraded or was localized and destroyed by the asteroid (was it a targeted hit?) or it’s still lying underneath the Sahara or the ocean…it was Pangea back then…and Chakotay joked that if they got stuck in the 21st century there were still a lot of discoveries yet to be made.

They never built structures on the Moon or Mars? Stuff like this is why I always thought the episode might twist at the end and Earth would be revealed as NOT the origin of the Voth. Maybe they originate from one of those duplicate Earth planets the Enterprise found in TOS ("Miri").

Maybe they never left the planet until they had to. And TOS did the alien origin bit with Sargon’s people and the Vulcans. And then TNG with the Protohumanoids and everyone.

Because if an Earth origin for the Voth is possible then Aquaman and the lost city of Atlantis should be possible too.

I dunno man, I think Tucker Carlson thinks the UAP are coming from beneath the seas/land on this very planet. The Lanthenites are calling from inside the house!

 

[Citiprime]

Even Geo-sync satellites will eventually fall.

Yes, but not for millions of years

The LAGEOS-1 satellite is below geostationary orbit and is predicted to not re-enter Earth's atmosphere for 8.4 million years.

And that's even before considering that a species capable of interstellar flight and developed a space-faring civilization before the exodus would probably put some stuff at Earth's Lagrange points as well, where things should be stable forever.

 

[BillJ]

Here's a question I've had about the Voth since the day the episode aired.

I know this is science fiction. So sometimes you just have to go with it, but is it in any way possible that a highly-developed technological civilization could have existed on Earth 65-million years ago and there would be absolutely no evidence of their existence in the present? No artifacts in the geological record?

They never launched geo-sync satellites that would still be in orbit? They never built structures on the Moon or Mars? Stuff like this is why I always thought the episode might twist at the end and Earth would be revealed as NOT the origin of the Voth. Maybe they originate from one of those duplicate Earth planets the Enterprise found in TOS ("Miri").

Because if an Earth origin for the Voth is possible then Aquaman and the lost city of Atlantis should be possible too.

I would say no, but I don’t think we could ever say for certain.

 

[oberth]

Yes, but not for millions of years

The LAGEOS-1 satellite is below geostationary orbit and is predicted to not re-enter Earth's atmosphere for 8.4 million years.

And that's even before considering that a species capable of interstellar flight and developed a space-faring civilization before the exodus would probably put some stuff at Earth's Lagrange points as well, where things should be stable forever.

who says they have developed that? they saw that comet coming for twohundred years and decided to built some ships in an let's try to get some of us out of here attempt

 

[BillJ]

who says they have developed that? they saw that comet coming for twohundred years and decided to built some ships in an let's try to get some of us out of here attempt

If they weren’t even to the satellite stage, I have a tough time seeing them building craft and traveling across the galaxy.

Maybe the Voth had help…

 

[oberth]

If they weren’t even to the satellite stage, I have a tough time seeing them building craft and traveling across the galaxy.

Maybe the Voth had help…

• i didn't say they didn't built satellites, did i?
• that would explain even more why we found zilch - help from people with no prime directive

 

[Citiprime]

I actually found that a super intriguing part of an otherwise disastrous episode. They’re not aliens like everyone else, they’re almost forces of nature, and so that makes one wonder what that says about nature…it’s like enter Einstein and a new concept of time and space, of nature and the Universe. Are they even what we think they are?

I always felt that was an interesting aspect of the Prophets that DS9 never really spelled out, but it's there to be interpreted based on what's shown.

Arguably, the Prophets are "timeless" too, in whatever that would mean for a species that exists in a non-linear dimension within an artificial wormhole. But if you watch DS9 from beginning to end, you come to find out that they created Sisko but that's because first contact with Sisko sets them on the path of taking on the role of being Bajor's "deities." He teaches them about linear existence and in every encounter that comes after (for Sisko at least), the Prophets come to have their own agenda that's tied to Bajoran prophecy. It's Sisko that basically causes them to become "gods," which in a way explains his position as Emissary.

They created Sisko, but only because Sisko helps them become who they ultimately are.

 

[Farscape One]

We're also assuming the Voth needed to create a satellite system to begin with. They might not have needed satellites for their technologies.

 

[drt]

I think this is a case where I think the Q believe their own dogma. I just don't believe they came into being with the existence of the universe.

Agreed. I'm ok with them being ancient, but like @BillJ, I also think they're mostly bullshit artists, so nothing they say is entirely true. Almost all of their "powers" have been seen seperately with other advanced aliens, which combined still makes them the most powerful race encountered, but hardly beings who have always existed.

 

[valkyrie013]

Yes, but not for millions of years

The LAGEOS-1 satellite is below geostationary orbit and is predicted to not re-enter Earth's atmosphere for 8.4 million years.

And that's even before considering that a species capable of interstellar flight and developed a space-faring civilization before the exodus would probably put some stuff at Earth's Lagrange points as well, where things should be stable forever.

Lagrange points are Not entirely stable either. Look at the James Webb.. it's length of service is dictated by its fuel reserve. It's still has to station keep.
add in micro meteorite impacts etc. I would only give it maybe thousands of years before the sky is clear or shattered to dust.

As for cities.. could be they didn't do metal high rises, more eco friendly. Or even organic technology. The voth after so long have risen and fallen probably countless times.

 

[Arpy]

Agreed. I'm ok with them being ancient, but like @BillJ, I also think they're mostly bullshit artists, so nothing they say is entirely true. Almost all of their "powers" have been seen seperately with other advanced aliens, which combined still makes them the most powerful race encountered, but hardly beings who have always existed.

Their omnipotence has been expressed on numerous occasions, and in "Death Wish" we learn that they know and have been and have done everything there is to do in the Universe. "The Q and the Grey" establishing that they've always existed makes sense enough as any world-building bit about any species in Trek. That it's so larger than life, so incredible to consider, might be difficult for us, but again it fits them as a people. It fills me with wonder trying to make sense of it and I like that quite a lot.

 

[Arpy]

I've got a larger list of notes to update the timeline with, but are there any specific additions—favorite bits of the "past"—people would like to see?

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

My personal headcanon says the Presevers relocated the ancestors of the Voth. After all, 15,000 years ago is just the most recent known action from the Preservers, not necessarily the time when they first arose.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Spoiler: Certifiably InGame - The Entire Timeline of Star Trek Part 01

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Spoiler: Certifiably InGame - The Entire Timeline of Star Trek Part 02

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Spoiler: Certifiably InGame - The Entire Timeline of Star Trek Part 03

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[Arpy]

^ yeah I saw those. Interesting for some visuals but too many assumptions.

Here's the one at Memory Alpha I find more helpful.

And here's Memory Beta's with additional info from the Trek Lit.

 

[publiusr]

Douwds and Tholians both probably quite old