Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
- Start date
I feel sometimes that part of fandom is the interest in watching the current institutions burn. Part of it isn't enjoyment at the failure, but the ongoing, if vain, hope that something more palatable will show up to take the place of the current "monstrosity" of productions.
One thing I have observed within fandom, including in myself over the years, is that there is this categorization of what makes a preferred fit within the production. In other words, it's like a box and certain things fit in the box, and others don't. So, when something doesn't, it's the long held hope of fans that it will go away and be replaced by something that better fits inside the box.
A podcast I enjoy had one panelist discuss his feelings on comic book films. He notes his preference that there be no more comic book movies because he feels comics are better as, well, books.
For some people, that is the nature of the world. Not that others might enjoy it, but it's mere existance needs to be eliminated because it doesn't fit the box.
That kind of thinking isn't logical though. There is never going to be a version of something that is "perfect" for everyone. The Legion of Super-Heroes in the DC universe is a perfect example. There have been so many attempts at rebooting the Legion over the years that don't work because Legion fandom is so divided over what the preferred version should be. I prefer having something over nothing. The next iteration of the DCU is going to have its naysayers as well as the DCEU as well, and I feel will only divide fandom more. What will make it a success (or not)--like the MCU--is what the general public thinks of it--not the limited fanbase. Same thing happened with the Star Trek movies.
Very likely.
Marvel, if they are sensible enough could use the Secret Wars as a softish reboot to reintroduce classic characters like Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap. DC can do similar with Crisis.
It isn't just the MCU. The DCU might even be having a harder time. I think it might just be that people are tired of the genre and maybe we are going to go back to where you got to be a big name Character to have Success, The Batman and Superman and Spiderman and such. Even if you have another Iron Man or Captain America the person playing the character is going to have a hard time winning over people who fell in love with Downey Jr and Evans.
It could be decades before a really popular version of those characters are truly replaced in the eyes of the fans. Even after all of these years even Superman still can't quite move on from Christopher Reeve. Pray for Taron Egerton to truly win people over as Wolverine after all of these years with Hugh Jackman.
It could be decades before a really popular version of those characters are truly replaced in the eyes of the fans. Even after all of these years even Superman still can't quite move on from Christopher Reeve. Pray for Taron Egerton to truly win people over as Wolverine after all of these years with Hugh Jackman.
Uhh, we've already got Riri Williams, Yelena Belova, and Sam Wilson. Saying the old versions need to be "reintroduced" when their successors have barely been given a chance to establish themselves seems like the opposite of "sensible."
See, this has been the problem with comics for decades. It used to be that when changes were made in characters' lives, they were permanent -- Clark Kent became a TV anchor instead of a newspaperman, Dick Grayson left to form the Titans and became Nightwing, Bruce Wayne closed the manor and moved on up to a dee-luxe apartment in the sky, the original X-Men grew up and were replaced by a new team who then moved on and had their own successors, Spider-Man went from high school to college to adulthood, etc. Characters died and they stayed dead (usually). But once comics fans grew up and started writing the comics, they began resetting the characters back to the way they'd been in the writers' childhood, whether by coming up with convoluted ways of getting the band back together, devising even more contrived ways to resurrect the dead, or rebooting the entire universe and starting over. And so comics have been stuck in an endless loop of forced, artificial plotting in service to rehashing the same nostalgia over and over again, and no longer allow their characters to undergo lasting, believable change and progression over the long term.
I really don't want to see the MCU fall prey to the same addiction to nostalgia. Let the characters mature, change, and move on along with their actors. Let the continuity grow and evolve naturally. Let heroes age out, retire, even die, and give their successors a real chance to establish themselves with new stories. Don't fall into the trap of clinging to the past.
Even setting aside the stupidity of trying to trap the MCU in circular nostalgia forever, if we really have reached a point where audiences just won't show up for anyone less than Batman, Spider-man, etc (which is highly doubtful even now) trying to respond to that by reintroducing Stark, Cap, etc to the MCU would still be idiotic.
If audiences are really that turned off by lesser known characters then any shared universe automatically becomes a drag on the handful of characters capable of succeeding, not a beneficial thing to be continued. The only logical way to try to reinvigorate the genre by bringing back the same old characters is to let those characters carry their own series without tying them to the baggage of other characters that you insist audiences supposedly don't want to see. So they can succeed or fail entirely on their own merits and branding and not crash and burn because everyone hated some other movie about some other character.
And if we're being honest, that hypothetical future may or may not actually manage to have a genuinely successful Cap or Iron Man since it entirely remains to be seen whether the MCU really permanently elevated those characters to the level of A-lister or whether they only got that boost as part of the MCU and in connection to those specific actors. And I don't see Black Widow even being on the table at that point. Especially since there are a lot of people who seem to like Pugh way better than Johannson and would not exactly celebrate a reboot at a time when Pugh's barely even had the chance to do anything.
If audiences are really that turned off by lesser known characters then any shared universe automatically becomes a drag on the handful of characters capable of succeeding, not a beneficial thing to be continued. The only logical way to try to reinvigorate the genre by bringing back the same old characters is to let those characters carry their own series without tying them to the baggage of other characters that you insist audiences supposedly don't want to see. So they can succeed or fail entirely on their own merits and branding and not crash and burn because everyone hated some other movie about some other character.
And if we're being honest, that hypothetical future may or may not actually manage to have a genuinely successful Cap or Iron Man since it entirely remains to be seen whether the MCU really permanently elevated those characters to the level of A-lister or whether they only got that boost as part of the MCU and in connection to those specific actors. And I don't see Black Widow even being on the table at that point. Especially since there are a lot of people who seem to like Pugh way better than Johannson and would not exactly celebrate a reboot at a time when Pugh's barely even had the chance to do anything.
A divided fanbase is natural and should be expected. There's no IP or franchise that has ever been completely united in desire, interest, or what they do not like, as evidenced by the Bond movies, Star Trek TV shows and films, Star Wars, etc. IP holders may want a hive-minded audience, but that has never been a reality in the history of film, TV, or any other medium, as someone--or group will see any particular production as the worst trash ever hurled at a screen, while others think its gold running out of a camera.
I actually agree, but the Marvel (& DC) suits will inevitably want Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne, and they and the shareholders will get it.
Our best hope will be that the creatives will make a decent job of it.
I really doubt we get as far as secret wars - it’s five or six years out?
Captain America will be a bomb (look at the budget) and then they will just start again rather than just throwing money directly into the fire.
Maybe so; I just disagree with the characterization of that attitude as "sensible." And let's not pretend that it isn't a racist/sexist backlash to a large extent.
Although I don't think it works to compare the Marvel and DC situations. It's quite normal in film history for a superhero character to be rebooted and reinterpreted with a new actor and continuity. It's happened numerous times with Batman and Superman, and several MCU characters are themselves reboots of earlier attempts -- Hulk, Daredevil, Captain America, even Thor if you count the Hulk/Thor TV movie. But the MCU itself is an exceptional entity, possibly the largest unified continuity in film history, certainly in superhero film history. It's exceptional in how long it's continued without ending or rebooting, and in how rich a continuity it's built by allowing it to change over time, by allowing events to have lasting consequences and characters to go through real, permanent changes.
The transition of the superhero community to a new generation inspired by the older one is a fascinating dynamic to explore, one worth embracing, and it would be a shame if people's fear of innovation and addiction to nostalgia short-circuited that dynamic when it's barely even started.
People seem to be forgetting that the MCU has never been an unbroken string of hits. A lot of its movies were disappointments -- The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor: The Dark World, etc. But they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They just kept going and continued to offer a mix of movies about different characters, some better than others, some more successful than others.
The problem today is that people have forgotten that, even with unifying continuity, these are all separate movies and shows about separate characters and situations, not just a single monolithic series. There's no reason why interest in a movie or show about one character has to be hurt by the underperformance of a movie or show about a different character with a different creative team just because they're set in the same universe. I fear that Infinity War/Endgame -- and maybe Justice League and maybe even Crisis in the Arrowverse to an extent -- got the audience so used to thinking of these things as unified wholes that they forgot those umbrella events were the exceptions, not the rule.
Yes, certainly the MCU needs to bring its excessive budgets under control and rethink some things on an executive level. But just because the patient is ailing lately doesn't mean the only solution is to euthanize it and start over.
I think the comic book genre needs to be euthanized for a few years. Both Marvel and DC need to take a break from making movies and TV before resuming again. Just for a few years.
I happen to like both Iron Man 2 and Thor: The Dark World a lot. In fact more than their respective origin films.
I happen to like both Iron Man 2 and Thor: The Dark World a lot. In fact more than their respective origin films.
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Who said it was?
Humans are not logical, especially about fandoms.
The realisation of the suitcase suit remains the best 15 seconds of the MCU to date.
But, really, the MCU peaked with Winter Soldier and has never been better, so declarations of deterioration just seem funny to me.
Agreed.
Peaked with Avengers for me.
Undoubtedly.