The United Federation of Planets centennial. 2161 - 2261

[Tuskin38]

Because aliens are alien.

Well that’s just racist

 

[Shawnster]

Because aliens are alien

And humans are human.

Why should the human inhabitants of Mars be required to reunify with Earth before they can join the United Federation of Planets?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

An interesting thing about Mars is that the colonies there actually predate United Earth itself. So Mars was never actually a colony of Earth, only pre-existing nations.

 

[C.E. Evans]

An interesting thing about Mars is that the colonies there actually predate United Earth itself. So Mars was never actually a colony of Earth, only pre-existing nations.

It may have been far easier for the Martian Colonies to unite if there weren't that many of them to begin with and the overall population of Mars was much smaller than Earth's. Earth on the other hand, with its many nations, political systems, and billions of people, may have been a more complicated cloth to weave together, even in the aftermath of first alien contact.

 

[Arpy]

Well that’s just racist

Treating say a collective organism differently does not make you racist. Not treating a collective organism differently makes you racist.

So what? That doesn't make representation based on biology less discriminatory.

Yes it does. It's not skin color that's at issue but the ontological reality of lifeforms different from us. It's ignorance to assume that everyone is the same when dealing with aliens.

"A" people. Right there. If a former colony world has undergone a form of ethnogenesis whereby they adopt a different communal identity, then they are no longer part of the same "people" as their originating world. If the Andorian Empire founds the colony of Artoro, and the Artoroans undergo ethnogenesis and cease to consider themselves the same people as the Andorian Empire, then there is no reason to oblige them to remain under the Andorian Empire.

Hawaii and New York are different too yet they're counted as a people. The issue is not one of where aliens can be similar but in those that they are not. One man one vote for example does not work with us and a society of say the Microbrains from TNG's "Home Soil" numbering in the quadrillions, but it could if there are roughly the same number of distinct beings among the quadrillions of silicon networks. Say they joined the Federation should they be expected to procreate at a certain rate so as to not overwhelm the rest or could its memberworld interact differently with the rest?

Or maybe the idea that they clone billions of themselves overnight is silly and inconsistent with subsequent canonical productions.

Or maybe it's an idea you don’t like and are annoyed that others do. You might as well be harping on your opinion on whether Starfleet is a military organization or if there is money in the Federation. No and No. No further discussion.

Well, it's been forty years and they've never used it, and nothing about the concept makes sense in the context of later canonical productions. I think we can safely ignore it.

It was a long time between seeing more than the same couple of phaser banks on TOS' Enterprise fire yet we did 36 years later on the Defiant on ENT. It's a big franchise with lots of minutia. Who would have thought we'd see a Betelgeusian on DSC, yet there was Lieutenant Commander Yor in "Terra Firma, Part I" after 41 years after TMP.

Again, genetic-engineering and AI are going to play heavily this century and Trek would be silly not to use aliens they've already established employing them.

Sci: If it were real though, I still don't think sentient beings should be discriminated against as you suggest. I also don't think those clones would be as uniform in their thinking as you describe. Sentient beings have a way of refusing to fit into narrow parameters.

That's an unrealistic stance you’re taking as a starting point. An identical mental & physical clone is identical in every way and would vote 99.975% of the time do exactly what the individual chosen for cloning would do. If you're cloning an army, you clone the toughest and most loyal soldier you've got. They’re not going to wake up and not fulfill their mission of voting in the interests of their people.

Arpy: That’s an interesting philosophy but not one I’d like to test in such a scenario.

Sci: You mean, "equal rights under the law?"

Arpy: Committing voter fraud undercuts equal rights by breaking the law.

Your reply, as you can see, is a non sequitur. I explicitly advocated for legal equality for Arcturian clones, up to and including voting rights under the law. If someone says, "The law should allow for X," it is a nonsensical to reply, "No, X is illegal." 1) You have not clearly established that it is illegal, only that you think it ought to be; 2) You need to argue why X ought to be illegal.

Should I begin with, "Your reply, as you can see, is missing the point"? Don't be rude. Flooding the polls with artificial voters is not equal rights under law; it's committing voting fraud. The clones are not yet legitimate citizens and the voters who are have grounds to sue if they're counted as such.

No. This argument is absurd. War is not a legitimate response to non-violent action. At most, a criminal conspiracy to commit widespread voter fraud on the part of a Federation Member State would warrant expulsion from the Federation. At most.

This is not controversial. When a thief is caught you don't not arrest them because they might get hurt in the process. They have to give back what they took, and that means applying force if they're noncompliant. They don't get to just leave town or give up their seat in the board.

It's not arbitrary, because these are planet-based lifeforms we're talking about.

It is arbitrary if you're interest is polities, not whole peoples. There can be many polities on a planet.

Which is pure nonsense, because we have seen, constantly, that there is enormous diversity within alien species.

It's arrogant to think that the diversity within a single species encapsulates all the diversity possible in existence. Not all beings can be understood by all others or groups of others. Still, that does not mean that alliances/federations can't be formed between them.

 

[Citiprime]

An interesting thing about Mars is that the colonies there actually predate United Earth itself. So Mars was never actually a colony of Earth, only pre-existing nations.

If you go by the dialogue in TNG's "Attached," United Earth didn't hold claim to representing the entirety of the planet and being the sole government representing humanity until just the year before NX-01 launched, 2150. And, per Voyager, United Earth through UESPA existed in some form in the middle 21st century and had launched Friendship One in 2067.

However, in "Encounter at Farpoint," Q has a line which indicates that his court of atomic horrors takes place in 2079 at a time in which United Earth had been "abolished."

DATA: If I may, Captain? Objection, your honor. In the year 2036, the new United Nations declared that no Earth citizen could be made to answer for the crimes of his race or forbears.

Q (JUDGE): Objection denied. This is a court of the year 2079, by which time more rapid progress had caused all United Earth nonsense to be abolished.​

Since that occurs 16 YEARS after first contact with the Vulcans, it indicates that it took a while to unify humanity. And one could argue that in the 90 years between first contact and Enterprise, a situation like what occurs in The Expanse might have taken place inside the solar system, with different factions fighting to unite humanity for their own purposes. I could see a very-early version of Starfleet/United Earth Military being formed to fight for control of the solar system in skirmishes to control resources.

It might also put a different spin on the Vulcans' reticence to share technology if humanity spent decades still bickering over control of our own planet even after the discovery of warp drive, and couldn't even agree how to manage the resources in our own solar system.

Also, United Earth seems to be in control of Mars by the time of Enterprise, since it seems Starfleet and the United Earth military have jurisdiction in retaking the verteron array on Mars and terraforming Mars, not any mentioned Mars government or armed forces.

One personal headcanon theory I've had is that Starfleet also predates the reestablished version of United Earth and was originally an American agency. That Zefram Cochrane contacted what was left of the US government after first contact and Starfleet was established by the US government and was absorbed into United Earth after it was reestablished. It would explain why Starfleet is based in San Francisco, why it uses the "USS" designation on their vessels (a vestige of its origin), and why it historically uses so many traditions of the United States military and US Navy specifically.

 

[Arpy]

^ right, it’s an organization that expanded and changed over time to represent humanity as a whole sometime before the launch of the NX-01.

There wasn’t a competing Roscosmos CCC-01 Leningrad out there as well belonging to another polity, headquartered on Luna or Mars or Alpha Centauri, that later helped found the Federation but not before first allying with the Romulan Star-Empire in the Earth-Romulan War…although that would be one far out story.

 

[Sci]

Yes it does. It's not skin color that's at issue but the ontological reality of lifeforms different from us. It's ignorance to assume that everyone is the same when dealing with aliens.

There is a very big difference between saying that genuine differences between species are things that exist and might make forming a democratic polity difficult, and A) saying genuine differences between species make one species's practices immoral or unethical, or B) saying that all members of an alien species are the same.

Hawaii and New York are different too yet they're counted as a people. The issue is not one of where aliens can be similar but in those that they are not.

No, the issue is whether or not a community considers itself to be part of the same people as the home world it came from. If it does not -- if its culture is distinct and its interests are different -- then it is speciesist to force it to remain under the governance of its "mother planet" just because they're the same species.

If I'm Andorian, I'd much rather have the V'Tosh Ka'tur Republic as a Federation Member State that's gonna vote with the Andorian Empire in the Federation Council more often than the Confederacy of Vulcan!

One man one vote for example does not work with us and a society of say the Microbrains from TNG's "Home Soil" numbering in the quadrillions, but it could if there are roughly the same number of distinct beings among the quadrillions of silicon networks. Say they joined the Federation should they be expected to procreate at a certain rate so as to not overwhelm the rest or could its memberworld interact differently with the rest?

Well, the Microbrain in "Home Soil" made it very clear that they didn't want contact with the Federation for another three centuries; they didn't seem to have any interest in joining as a Member.

I am not persuaded that lifeforms so fundamentally different from humanoids would even want to join the Federation in the first place. What advantages would Federation Membership confer upon lifeforms whose fundamental needs are so vastly different from those of humanoids? And what advantages could their Membership offer the Federation? This seems like an example of two different kinds of biology being so different that a democratic union would not interest either party.

But assuming they did apply to join the Federation, I think they and the UFP would negotiate in advance what units of Microbrain society would constitute a "citizen" and thereby be entitled to a vote.

The idea of a legal limit on reproduction seems like a fundamental violation of individual rights.

Or maybe it's an idea you don’t like and are annoyed that others do.

You have yet to explain how the Jem'Hadar could possibly have been a threat if the Federation had its own army of clones they could breed overnight. It's a fine idea in a different context, but it makes no sense in the context of the canonical episodes and films produced after TMP.

That's an unrealistic stance you’re taking as a starting point. An identical mental & physical clone is identical in every way and would vote 99.975% of the time do exactly what the individual chosen for cloning would do.

By that logic, identical siblings would always make the same choices. After all, their genetics and experiences are largely the same -- yet they don't.

Flooding the polls with artificial voters is not equal rights under law; it's committing voting fraud. The clones are not yet legitimate citizens

See, this is is my fundamental problem with how you're framing things. You're framing everything in hierarchical terms, using rhetoric that denies personhood and equal rights.

I don't disagree with the idea that a democratic union with a species that reproduces so rapidly might not be sustainable. If you had argued: "The Arcturian way is legitimate for their culture, and Arcturian clones are people who deserve equal rights, but the Federation cannot accept them as Members because their reproductive practices would tip the balance of power within the Federation too much in their favor, without it needing to be acting out of any sort of malice," I think that would be a fair argument!

But instead, you framed it all in the most belligerent, hierarchical terms possible: It's "voting fraud." Arcturian people produced by cloning aren't "legitimate citizens." If Arcturians practice this form of reproduction, then it's a deliberate attempt to subvert the democratic process instead of, y'know, just being a thing their culture does. It might even justify war. WTF?

Two cultures can be incompatible for democratic union without either culture being bad or inferior or illegitimate. Arcturian cultural practices might make a democratic union with them unsustainable without it being an act of malice on the Arcturians' part.

This is not controversial. When a thief is caught you don't not arrest them because they might get hurt in the process. They have to give back what they took, and that means applying force if they're noncompliant. They don't get to just leave town or give up their seat in the board.

What the hell are you talking about? If you don't want Arcturian clones to have equal rights, don't let Arcturius into the Federation in the first place. Don't let them in, then get pissed about a thing you already knew they were doing, and then declare war on them because they won elections and you didn't. Jesus.

It is arbitrary if you're interest is polities, not whole peoples. There can be many polities on a planet.

Okay, but I would imagine the Federation has a provision for such polities then. The issue is evaluating the level of political unity and development they've achieved.

It's arrogant to think that the diversity within a single species encapsulates all the diversity possible in existence. Not all beings can be understood by all others or groups of others.

And it's ridiculous to imagine that species we have canonically seen to possess a great deal of diversity must necessarily be so identical in interests as to delegitimize separate Member status for former colony worlds that have undergone legitimate ethnogenesis.

 

[Arpy]

Righteo, Happy New Year.

There is a very big difference between saying that genuine differences between species are things that exist and might make forming a democratic polity difficult, and A) saying genuine differences between species make one species's practices immoral or unethical, or B) saying that all members of an alien species are the same.

I don’t think I’m saying either of those.

Immoral to one species is not immoral to another. Is sight immoral to a species that can only hear and vice versa? To the second point, some of the seeing species may prefer blue to red; neither are the same yet neither still can hear to understand B-sharp over E-flat. They can still all unite and defend against the Klingons, and they can still live on each other's worlds.

No, the issue is whether or not a community considers itself to be part of the same people as the home world it came from. If it does not -- if its culture is distinct and its interests are different -- then it is speciesist to force it to remain under the governance of its "mother planet" just because they're the same species.

Ideally the homeworld has no more sway on the whole of the memberworld than the rest of it — House and *Senate checking each other's power.

Well, the Microbrain in "Home Soil" made it very clear that they didn't want contact with the Federation for another three centuries; they didn't seem to have any interest in joining as a Member.

Don't get hung up on the specific species; it's the scenario that's important, and it's not like the Microbrains couldn't change their minds.

I am not persuaded that lifeforms so fundamentally different from humanoids would even want to join the Federation in the first place. What advantages would Federation Membership confer upon lifeforms whose fundamental needs are so vastly different from those of humanoids? And what advantages could their Membership offer the Federation? This seems like an example of two different kinds of biology being so different that a democratic union would not interest either party.

I think a narrowly defined Federation as you’re suggesting wouldn't make sense for the diverse alien lifeforms that would likely be found in the galaxy. Certainly not in the real world and I think that Trek, when it's trying, does show that there are diverse aliens out there in its universe too. I think that the Federation would "amend its constitution" or would from the start have one capable of federating with many very diverse forms of life, and that it could one day span the galaxy—and beyond. That doesn't happen if everyone has to be more or less human. And there's plenty of advantage to uniting in such an immensely powerful, sophisticated, and benevolent society for humans and aliens alike.

You have yet to explain how the Jem'Hadar could possibly have been a threat if the Federation had its own army of clones they could breed overnight. It's a fine idea in a different context, but it makes no sense in the context of the canonical episodes and films produced after TMP.

I already said that the Arcturians might have been the first hit. And that even with their clone armies they could simply be losing lots of them—the Jem'Hadar have been at this a long time, and they're bred only for combat.

It could also be Changeling infiltration that wrought havoc on the cloning industry in the years leading up to the war, or on the facilities directly as saboteurs. In the real world we're able to attack enemy facilities with computer viruses—why not the Dominion who also employ actual viruses?

And come to think of it, maybe the Arcturians were hit with some Quickening variant or other biological weapon (maybe through the fluoride in their tap water lol) that thwarts easy cloning.

By that logic, identical siblings would always make the same choices. After all, their genetics and experiences are largely the same -- yet they don't.

See: Asimov's psychohistory.

Trends, not individuals.

See, this is is my fundamental problem with how you're framing things. You're framing everything in hierarchical terms, using rhetoric that denies personhood and equal rights.

And I think you get triggered/like to be by terms like voter fraud even when what we're discussing would be voter fraud. I mean, we're probably fairly aligned politically if that makes you feel any better.

Nah, I simply think you're drawing easy parallels between things that are different. "Aliens are alien."

I don't disagree with the idea that a democratic union with a species that reproduces so rapidly might not be sustainable. If you had argued: "The Arcturian way is legitimate for their culture, and Arcturian clones are people who deserve equal rights, but the Federation cannot accept them as Members because their reproductive practices would tip the balance of power within the Federation too much in their favor, without it needing to be acting out of any sort of malice," I think that would be a fair argument!

I think that they are people and legitimate and all that, but I think I'm arguing for a way that they can be in the Federation as themselves and you're arguing that they must be like us.

What the hell are you talking about? If you don't want Arcturian clones to have equal rights, don't let Arcturius into the Federation in the first place. Don't let them in, then get pissed about a thing you already knew they were doing, and then declare war on them because they won elections and you didn't. Jesus.

Okay, last time I'll asking you not to be rude.

Please.

I think all the points here have been covered by comments above.

And it's ridiculous to imagine that species we have canonically seen to possess a great deal of diversity must necessarily be so identical in interests as to delegitimize separate Member status for former colony worlds that have undergone legitimate ethnogenesis.

If all the diverse and separate cultures on Earth can still find a way to unite in a one-world government, why would it be unfathomable for yet other cultures on Luna and elsewhere to do the same in a single multi-planetary government? Do you think that Japan will be/need be homogenous with Mexico in the future? Why need Earth and Mars? And yet they can still form a union with one another. They already have if they're in the Federation.

The same would go for all the maybe hundreds of different Andorian cultures in their memberworld and so on and so forth for all 150 others, and more. Each species reaching maximum unity in a single polity. And all polities of sufficient technological and social development forming a larger Federation.

That's the dream.

Not that somehow the Federation is a one-to-one parallel with The United States of America, or other contemporary terrestrial democratic republics. Certainly not circa 2024.

That's not the only way that we can all be one big happy Federation together.