Then again, precisely that property could have made them a key player in their own way. Much like important institutions of international alliances are often also found in smaller 'neutral' countries because the big players of such alliances don't want them (too firmly) in each others' hands and lands. For example, had Humans and Vulcans fought over where the capital of the Federation was going to be, they might have chosen Denobula as a compromise.
The United Federation of Planets centennial. 2161 - 2261
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Then again, precisely that property could have made them a key player in their own way. Much like important institutions of international alliances are often also found in smaller 'neutral' countries because the big players of such alliances don't want them (too firmly) in each others' hands and lands. For example, had Humans and Vulcans fought over where the capital of the Federation was going to be, they might have chosen Denobula as a compromise.
Are you sure? It is expected that *all of a prospective planet join, per TNG’s “Attached.” Not every human is necessarily a Federation citizen, but it would be an attempt to game the system and counter to the spirit of what we learn in “Attached” if every human *interstellar “nation-state” got its own vote, especially when say a unified Vulcan with with maybe 50 times the population and territory got one.
Also, these are aliens we’re talking about with different biologies and thought processes as well as cultures and populations. If Arcturians are the bulk of the Federation infantry, per TMP expanded material, and are capable of cloning themselves by the billions virtually overnight, does each clone get their own vote, morning after—what if they’re programmed with the memories and minds of existing Arcturians? What if among the Arcturians they believe that every individual is a sovereign citizen—does every clone get a vote in the Federation Council? Or every independent planet, moon, station, ship?
Or what of the Bynars who might have fewer distinguishable citizens among their people than they do actual people? Plus some fully artificial electronic ones emergent from their collective communication networks?
Or what of the Denobulans among whom maybe great corporations and even little towns genetically-engineer new citizens as well as do traditional couples/triads? Do the artificial people get votes? Even when their leanings are programmed in or first generations might be ultimately unviable?
Iyaarans don’t understand love. Maybe the Acadians don’t understand logic. And the Ktarians don’t have a concept of time.
I think that there are complexities between species that as species each has to own for relations between them to work. Whether that means a bicameral Federation Council (as in the US we have a Congress with a Senate more representing individual states and a House more representing the large or small populations therein) or a unicameral one capable of addressing all these complexities and the possible more of prospective new Federation memberworlds.
What he said makes sense and is in agreement with what you are saying. It's governments or political bodies that join the Federation, not individual people.
So if a group of humans were living on Kesprit and were Kesprit citizens, then those humans are not Federation citizens.
Humans did not join the Federation. Earth joined the Federation.
Now, where I'm confused is making the distinction between Earth and United Earth. Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference. Earth is a united planet with 1 united government. Of course, it seems only united worlds can join. That was what set up the plot of "Allegiance". Kesprit was not unified but one of the 2 political bodies wanted to join the Federation.
Further, it's not the physical planet that joins the Federation. It's the government of the planet. Vulcan is a member of the Federation but if the planet Vulcan was suddenly destroyed, the survivors would still be Federation citizens. They would not lose their citizenship simply because their planet was destroyed.
A unified planetary government is generally taken as a sign of a unified people, IMO. Not everyone on a particular Federation planet may feel the same way and may even loathe the Federation, but if a civilization in general has reached the point where it's no longer short-sighted, self-destructive, or a danger to others, that makes it eligible for Federation membership.
I think that in some of the fan or extended universe resources they have United Earth and Mars and other independent human colonies being *separate Federation members. I don't know why the Andorian Empire or anyone else would enter or stay in a Federation with multiple fingers on the scales.
Now individual humans who are not Federation citizens, that's a different matter, yeah.
Well, it is named the United Federation of Planets after all. So in a way it's in the very name that planets as a whole join, not just parts of them, worlds have to be unified first. (Even though of course it's the government of such a world that actually joins, not the planet itself.)
Suppose a unified world joins, and then later the unified government falls for some reason and that world is divided again in different factions or countries. Would such a planet be kicked out of the UFP/ would Federation membership be suspended for the duration of the division?
Suppose a unified world joins, and then later the unified government falls for some reason and that world is divided again in different factions or countries. Would such a planet be kicked out of the UFP/ would Federation membership be suspended for the duration of the division?
I think that's the drawback of the story telling. I don't believe it was until ENT that we first heard of off world Vulcan colonies, whereas the "Fundamental Declarations of the Martian colonies" was mentioned in TOS. We saw countless "Earth colonies" but rarely, if ever, any other species colonies.
I like the suggestion that each independent government needed to join separately. Perhaps some Earth colonies were not independent of Earth and, therefore, not sovereign governments that required separate admission to the Federation.
We've sort of seen that play out in real life. China went through a civil war and the losing side fled to Taiwan, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia broke apart, and the Soviet Union collapsed. This all affected their UN membership, or at least had potential to do so. China was one that really caused a stir as Taiwan originally wanted to retain China's spot as permanent member of the UN Security Council before the ultimate decision was made to allow mainland China to have that position. Bosnia had to be admitted to the UN despite it's predecessor, Yugoslavia, having been a member prior to it's collapse.
So a planet whose government collapses might need to be readmitted to the Federation. If they can't establish a unified planetary government, they may not qualify to be admitted.
I dunno, going by this list of Federation members from 2019 alone, that’s 116 different species. If the Federation is ~150 worlds, that leaves about 34 spots open. The Vulcans were in space for 2000 years before the humans. They alone would have more colonies than spots left, let alone even half of every other member having even a single one. It can’t be just humans that value their independence.
The Arcturians I mentioned above, again, could believe that every planet, every moon, every station, and every ship are sovereign. Do they get 10,000 votes in the 150-member body?
Or does everyone else get one but the wet-eared humans get 10? Oh look Turkana IV finally has their shit together—make that 11.
The Arcturians I mentioned above, again, could believe that every planet, every moon, every station, and every ship are sovereign. Do they get 10,000 votes in the 150-member body?
Or does everyone else get one but the wet-eared humans get 10? Oh look Turkana IV finally has their shit together—make that 11.
Colonies of a member world don't count as members. They have to get in on their own.
In the SNW season finale, for example, the human colony on Parnassus Beta is not a Federation member. In fact they have actively declined Federation membership because they didn't want attention from the Gorn.
In the SNW season finale, for example, the human colony on Parnassus Beta is not a Federation member. In fact they have actively declined Federation membership because they didn't want attention from the Gorn.
On the other hand, in Journey's End, Picard warns the colonists of Dorvan IV that by 'giving up their status as Federation citizens any future request ....will go unanswered'. So apparently they were Federation citizens up until that point. I think that would make sense, too. A small colony might not be able to protect its members from an attack of a hostile power.
So I think normally, a colony might not be a Federation member itself (in that it doesn't have a vote), but its citizens still might qualify as Federation citizens, unless they actively reject that for whatever reason.
Sure, no one is keeping people in the Federation. If they want to renounce citizenship and strike out on their own, that’s on them. But if they want in a generation from now, 3200 people are not joining as their own memberworld.
That I think is different from a Federation colony that is administered by the Federation, or a human colony that administered by the human memberworld.
Why not?
Why isn't Mars a distinct member world?
Is it a solar system thing? Mars is in Sol system so it can not be separate from Earth? Didn't they separate before founding of the Federation? What if Earth wanted to join the Federation but not Mars? Is the entire Rigel system a single Federation member?
I think a lot of this has already been addressed upthread—and this isn’t a long one.
It's not canon, but the old Star Trek: Star Charts book actually has both the Moon and Mars listed as separate member worlds that have their own separate governments from Earth (Lunar Colonies and United Martian Colonies, respectively). It implies that both the Moon and Mars were not members of the United Earth, but joined the Federation shortly after it was formed in 2161.
In the case of Mars, the TOS episode "Court Martial" referenced "the Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies," which could support the idea that Mars stood separate from Earth, IMO.
In the case of Mars, the TOS episode "Court Martial" referenced "the Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies," which could support the idea that Mars stood separate from Earth, IMO.
Wasn't there an episode of DS9 which explicitly said that Mars was independent of Earth? I think it even showed a Martian flag.
I don’t think so. Also, my state Pennsylvania has a flag. We’re not independent of the United States.
A work of art – specifically a painting of a matador – inspired the flag for the first Martian colonies in 2103. (DS9: "In the Cards")
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Flag
I'm not sure what you mean? But I think "Attached" proves my point -- "Attached" establishes that a prospective Federation Member must govern at least an entire planet, united under that single polity's sovereignty. As Beverly argues, United Earth could not have joined the Federation if it had not included within its territory the Commonwealth of Australia.
Nonetheless, however, it remains the polity which joins the Federation, not the planet per se. Legally-speaking, a polity is not its territory. The area of territory known as Long Island does not have two senators in the U.S. Senate; the polity known as the State of New York has two senators in the U.S. Senate. If you commit murder, you will not be prosecuted by the area of territory known as Long Island, you will be prosecuted by the State of New York. Similarly, the area of territory called Planet Earth does not have a Federation Councillor; the polity known as United Earth has a Federation Councillor. If you commit a crime, you won't be prosecuted by the area of territory called Planet Earth; you will be prosecuted by United Earth. Etc.
It seems improbable that they can actually clone themselves by the billions so rapidly. But if the resulting clones are sentient beings, I do not see any good reason why they should be denied the equal right to a vote in Federation elections. "The Drumhead" and "The Perfect Mate" were very clear that all Federation citizens are equal under Federation law.
I think that's a question that would get resolved before the Federation accepts the Arcturian polity as a Federation Member. And it seems patently obvious that the Federation would not accept billions of separate individual beings as distinct Federation Member polities in their own right when considering Arcturian Membership, any more than the Federal Republic of Germany would have accepted individual persons as separate Länder when it was in the process of accepting the Länder of the German Democratic Republic into its federal union.
I think the Federation would probably make consideration for aliens whose biology and culture lead to a different conception of personhood than we find in our species -- if an individual Bynar is truly not a whole person by Bynar biology and culture, probably the Federation agreed to legally consider a paired Bynar unit as an individual citizen under UFP law, for instance. But, again, that's the sort of thing that would get negotiated when a given polity is being considered for Federation Membership. It's a separate question than the point I was making, which is that, again, species and planets do not join as Federation Members, political entities join as Federation Members.
At this point, it's clear that the Federation before the 2400s had some entrenched systemic biases against synthetic lifeforms, so it's unlikely that the Federation was willing to accept a fully artificial electronic sentient entities emergent from a collective communications network as a Federation citizen with equal rights.
Hopefully this changed after Jean-Luc Picard led the Federation to repeal its anti-synth laws in the early 2400s.
At this point, the information about the Federation's relationship to genetically engineered persons, from "Ghosts of Illyria" (SNW), "Ad Astra Per Aspera" (SNW), "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?" (DS9), "Statistical Probabilities" (DS9), "Chrysalis" (DS9), ""Masquerade" (PRO), and "Supernova, Part II" (PRO), make it pretty clear that even into the 2380s, the Federation absolutely will not accept as a Member a polity whose citizens practice genetic engineering in the first place. The question of whether or not the UFP would accept genetically engineered Denobulans as equal Federation citizens would never apply, since the Denobulan polity would be excluded from Federation Membership in the first place.
Personally, I don't see why clones shouldn't have the right to vote. But Federation bigotry against genetic engineering seems deeply engrained.
Again, these are all questions that would have to get negotiated before such worlds join the UFP in the first place -- and none of this speaks to the point I made, which is, again, that species or planets do not join the Federation, political entities join.
I agree that those are complex questions. We don't know the details of the internal workings of the Federation Council. I would simply note that most of the world, if they practice bicameralism, give primary legislative power to the chamber that represents the citizenry rather than the chamber that represents the constituent polities. The U.S. is an outlier that way. The German version is better -- the Länder and their rights are represented in the Bundesrat, but primary legislative power still falls to the Bundestag.
Exactly.
I draw the distinction because there's a difference between a polity and its territory. United Earth, for instance, might encompass more territory than just Earth -- the settlements on Luna, for instance, are likely part of United Earth. "People of Earth" (DIS) seems to strongly imply that the settlements on Titan were part of United Earth's territory before U.E. established its planetary shield and cut off communication from the rest of the galaxy. So if Titan is part of U.E. territory, and you're living on Titan, you would still get U.E. citizenship, and you would receive representation in the United Earth Parliament, and you would get representation at the Federation level through the Federation Councillor(s) for United Earth.
Exactly. In the Kelvin Timeline, we know that the Vulcans have established a new homeworld -- presumably, the Vulcan polity (called the Confederacy of Vulcan in the Rise of the Federation novels -- it's not canon but I'll use that name here for convenience) still exists, is still a Federation Member, and its surviving citizens still receive representation on the Federation Council through the Federation Councillor(s) for the Confederacy of Vulcan.
The novels have indeed established that there are multiple distinct Federation Members who became legally separated from United Earth, including the Confederated Martian Colonies (which actually became independent from Earth and its nations before United Earth was established), Vega, and Deneva. I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, but I think there was the implication that other Federation Members also had former colony worlds that became separate Federation Members in their own right. There's no particular reason a former Andorian colony planet couldn't have become legally separated from the Andorian Empire and then accepted as its own Federation Member, for instance.
Re: "multiple fingers on the scales." I think everyone understands that being predominantly the same species as United Earth's predominant species doesn't mean you have the same beliefs or interests as United Earth.
Yep.
If we're talking about a well-established, fully-fledged Federation Member? I don't think the Federation would allow that to happen, anymore than, say, the Canadian federal government would allow the government of the Province of Alberta to fall and Alberta to become divided into different factions. The Canadian government would intervene to determine who the legitimate government of Alberta is, and then would send in whatever forces are necessary to maintain civil order and secure the ability of the Alberta government to stay in power.
Similarly, the Federation would not allow, say, the government of Tellar (the Tellarite polity is referred to as the United Planets of Tellar in the novels) to collapse and civil war to emerge. The Federation Supreme Court would adjudicate who the legitimate government of the United Planets of Tellar is, and then the Federation President would send in Starfleet to restore order and secure the legitimate Tellarite government's hold on power.
The Federation probably would allow a Federation Member that wants to secede to undergo the legal process to do so. (In the novels, a nationalist political party wins a majority of seats in the Parliament Andoria in 2382, and the Andorian Empire peacefully and legally secedes from the UFP before re-joining several years later.) I imagine an interesting story would be if a pro-secession party were to win a majority of seats in a Federation Member's legislature, an armed uprising from a pro-Federation faction emerges, and then the Federation intervenes to restore the legally-elected secessionists to power... only for them to secede after all.
Now, we do know from Tasha Yar's backstory that at least some relatively modern colony worlds have fallen into civil war and lawlessness without Federation intervention. The UFP seems to have accepted that Tasha's colony's declaration of independence from the UFP was legitimate and not intervened to stop its subsequent collapse.
Yeah, I think we need to bear in mind that "Earth colony" or whatever is probably more a description of where the colonists come from than a statement about the colony's legal jurisdiction.
Some colonies are probably considered political subdivisions of a Federation Member State -- some "Earth colonies" are probably considered to be under the jurisdiction of United Earth, with the colonists voting for Member(s) of the United Earth Parliament and for the Federation Councillor(s) for United Earth. Some colonies are probably considered "Federation colonies" directly without being part of a Member -- presumably, those colonists get to vote for the Federation President (I question whether they'd get legislative representation without Membership status). And some colonies are probably legally independent of the Federation and its Members while still being referred to informally as an "Earth colony" or an "Andorian colony" because most of the colonists came from Earth or Andor or whatever.
I would infer that Parnassus Beta was established as an independent, sovereign state in its own right, with its citizens lacking Federation citizenship and receiving no representation in any Federation Member State's legislature or on the Federation Council.
Yeah, different colonies seem to have different legal statuses.
Yep -- the second category of colony I speculated about.
None of this has ever been explicitly established in the canon. At most, the existence of the Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies, referred to in, IIRC, "Court Martial" (TOS) as an influential piece of legal history in the pantheon of documents establishing civil rights and liberties, does seem to imply that Mars became independent of Earth at some point. But this has never been canonically established.
In the novels, the Confederated Martian Colonies declared independence from Earth before United Earth was established, and only joined the Federation in the first year after the UFP had been established by United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, the United Planets of Tellar, and the Alpha Centauri Concordium (another former Earth colony that had previously become independent). The question of whether Mars would join the Federation was viewed as crucial to the early Federation's ability to survive and grow, and a single Member of the Martian Parliament ultimately cast the deciding vote. Mars remained relatively less influential within the Federation than Earth, leading to a feeling of being the "cosmic Canada" and of feeling like they're the Federation's "car garage" because of the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards.
In Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel, we learn that the various Rigels are united in a single polity called the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies. The URWC is governed by the Rigellian Trade Commission, so-called because the Rigellian government was originally just a governing trade body before evolving into a government outright. The United Rigel Worlds and Colonies joins the Federation as the seventh Member State in 2164, three years after the Federation is founded.
In the novels, the Federation Council is unicameral and a single Federation Councillor represents each Member State.
A polity which is the only one representing that species. The issue is one of maturity not geography. Whether the "Australians" are on a continent on Earth or on the next planet over, the issue is can the humans play nice with each other?
We’ve seen humans that are no longer or that perhaps have never been under the auspices of the Federation, but we've never seen a Federation memberworld separate from other humans.
Flooding the polls with billions of cloned beings programmed with the memories and minds of existing Arcturians is gaming the system and is in no way having free and democratic elections. It would invite every memberworld to do the same, or more realistically to vote to expel the Arcturians from the Federation, if not to outright declare war on them depending on when the election tampering first began and what effect it's had.
They're not accepted in Starfleet; we don't know if they'd be accepted as members.
Plus, it may depend on the kind of genetic-engineering. SNW did show us a Denobulan redshirt. Was he not genetically-engineered at all or not beyond a certain point that would give him an unfair advantage, or is there an accommodation made for Denobulans–maybe a limited number of slots for them or above a certain rank or within certain divisions.
The DS9 genetic-engineering ban was ridiculous from the outset, and I think will be negated as we begin to take real world genetic-engineering more seriously in the coming years.
The same with AI. I think we'll be seeing more of the Bynars and alas(?) the Borg in the years ahead. ChatGPT told me so.
The way they'd get negotiated is by establishing a democracy that factors for them. Ours is a democratic republic precisely because the direct democracy modeled by Athens needed to be renegotiated for a larger nation of people. The Federation is larger still and with more varied kinds of people. This is a brilliant awe-inspiring thing.
Vulcan vetoing its membership. Andor could legally free dozens of colony worlds to have a huge advantage over solitary Vulcan, and everyone else.
Not everyone of a species needs to have the same beliefs and interests, but trends tend to arise out of similar populations of beings. 5 out of 8 free Andorian colonies voting with Mother Andor is enough to give Andor sufficient advantage over Vulcan. Or any other single member. Or to make them a concern for all members. Again, it's why we have a Senate as well as a House.
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