Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Anwar]

With 2023 at an end, one of the most amusing occurrences of this year in the film industry is the Downfall of Marvel.

The failures of Quantumania, Secret Invasion, The Marvels, the behind the scenes drama (exposed in Joanna Robinson's Book and by the Trades), etc

This has been inevitable for a few years now.

I love sports and Marvel Studios was like a great team with an amazing coach and roster of players (for the First 10 years).

Then new people stepped in with unappealing ideas, pushing unappealing characters,...alienated the audience.. and here we are.


It's pretty damning that Marvel Studio's only real win of 2023 (Guardians 3) was made by the man who is now fronting the Distinguished Competition (DC). It's ultimately more of a win for WBD, while Marvel is still buried in corporate mismanagement.

I wonder if Daredevil Born Again will ever see the light of day..

Ant-Man 3 ended up succeeding on Streaming, Secret Invasion was offset by how successful What If? was and the quick turnaround on people now wanting to see Echo, and The Marvels will similarly do better on Streaming.

But I'm not surprised by how fickle certain "fans" turned out to be.

 

[TerryTrek]

Ant-Man 3 ended up succeeding on Streaming, Secret Invasion was offset by how successful What If? was and the quick turnaround on people now wanting to see Echo, and The Marvels will similarly do better on Streaming.

But I'm not surprised by how fickle certain "fans" turned out to be.

'Succeeding' on streaming is like being the the 8th Grader who can beat up the Kindergartens. Quantumania still lost hundreds of millions theatrically. It did not turn a profit regardless of streaming.

"What If" is successful? Lol. Not even close. Wait for the Nielson ratings


And what people wanting to see Echo? Lol. They are dumping Echo all on one day. That doesn't show much confidence for the inevitable mess that it will be.

 

[Relayer1]

I think they'll learn from their mistakes, but it's like turning a supertanker - you act and see the result much later.

Quantumania failed because it was crap and the studio just couldn't see it. Much of the TV output has been rather low wattage and transferred similarly to the cinema. They let Waititi sprinkle his crud all over Thor, the whole multiverse plot is being badly mismanaged and Kang is just a rotten antagonist.

They're up shit creek at the moment, but there's a way forward with Time Runs Out, incursions and Dr. Doom.

There's perhaps inevitably some superhero fatigue, but Marvel still has way more going for it than the Dodgy Competition and I have somewhere between zero and no faith at all in Gunn & Co.

 

[Set Harth]

Ragnarok worked. I haven't seen Thor 4 save for the opening sequence, but I gather it didn't go so well?

 

[Relayer1]

Ragnarok worked. I haven't seen Thor 4 save for the opening sequence, but I gather it didn't go so well?

I'm afraid not.

 

[theenglish]

Less complaining, more observing the reality of the situation.

I noticed that your subsequent comments make it seem like you are more ready for picking a fight rather than engaging in an actual discussion.

Super-hero movies in general rode a wave of popularity for a few years, inspired largely by the success of the MCU; and as such, we are in for a course correction. I don't see it as a failure of the genre, just that I can see a future where it won't be dominating the box office to the detriment of other worthy movies out there. The message to makers of super-hero films is that what might have been an interesting film ten years ago, is no longer interesting. You can't just keep doing the same origin story, or multiverse gimmick.

Marvel studios is not crashing and burning to the extent that a lot of people think it is. It is widely known now that the executive branch of the operation wanted a lot of content for Disney+ and stretched the creative branch too far. Feige was not able to continue his approach of being the one guy in charge of making sure the movies/series maintained a certain level of quality, connected with the established universe, and had some coherent overall arc building to something big. Now that that story is out in the open, the problem is being addressed and I think we will see a difference down the road.

As for the current 2023 state of the MCU, no doubt two of the movies took a financial hit (which doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the films themselves) and Secret Invasion was a critical failure; however, What If? has been successful and Echo has a lot of anticipation around it. As for the other characters introduced in recent years, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and Moon Knight were all enjoyable to watch and have a lot of potential. We have a new Hawkeye, Black Panther and Black Widow who are enjoyable successors to those roles. There is a lot of potential going forward.

 

[Christopher]

Super-hero movies in general rode a wave of popularity for a few years, inspired largely by the success of the MCU;

Hmm, I would amend that a bit. The wave of superhero movies was inspired by the success of X-Men in 2000 and Spider-Man in 2002, and was bolstered by the success of their sequels and other films such as Hellboy in 2004 and Batman Begins in 2005. There were plenty of superhero movies, both good and bad, in the first eight years of the decade -- Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, two Fantastic Four films, Constantine, Catwoman, Superman Returns, etc. Superhero movies were already such an established mainstream trend when the MCU began in 2008 that there was a spoof of the overall genre called Superhero Movie that same year, just a month or so before Iron Man came out. The MCU didn't create the superhero wave, it was made possible by it. It built on the success of its predecessors and took it to the next level. (Keep in mind that Kevin Feige got his start at Marvel Studios as an associate producer on X-Men.)

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Oh, goodies. Another round of people dancing on others struggles (whether they're real or not) in a thread dedicated to people who enjoy Marvel.

We get it. You're thrilled about Marvel's struggles.

Move on.

Let those of us who still enjoy Marvel to continue to do so.

 

[Set Harth]

The wave of superhero movies was inspired by the success of X-Men in 2000 and Spider-Man in 2002

And, some would say, Blade.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Ragnarok worked. I haven't seen Thor 4 save for the opening sequence, but I gather it didn't go so well?

Love and Thunder and Ragnarok are very similar in a lot of ways, but Love and Thunder went off the rails in two different places, in my opinion.

And, some would say, Blade.

Except for the fact that Blade wasn't promoted as a superhero movie in the slightest. It was released in the middle of a vampire craze and was totally promoted as a vampire movie. The majority of the people who saw the movie didn't even realize that it was based on a comic book superhero.

 

[theenglish]

Hmm, I would amend that a bit. The wave of superhero movies was inspired by the success of X-Men in 2000 and Spider-Man in 2002, and was bolstered by the success of their sequels and other films such as Hellboy in 2004 and Batman Begins in 2005. There were plenty of superhero movies, both good and bad, in the first eight years of the decade -- Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, two Fantastic Four films, Constantine, Catwoman, Superman Returns, etc. Superhero movies were already such an established mainstream trend when the MCU began in 2008 that there was a spoof of the overall genre called Superhero Movie that same year, just a month or so before Iron Man came out. The MCU didn't create the superhero wave, it was made possible by it. It built on the success of its predecessors and took it to the next level. (Keep in mind that Kevin Feige got his start at Marvel Studios as an associate producer on X-Men.)

The first X-Men movie laid the groundwork for Super-hero movies set in something resembling the "real world" and there were always a few good comics offerings every year. I thought I read (maybe here) that the success of the X-Men and Spider-Man films directly inspired the creation of the MCU in the 00's. I think that we will go back to a place where there are a similar number of super-hero movies with a similar cultural impact as we had 15 to 20 years ago.

 

[Thestral]

Oh, goodies. Another round of people dancing on others struggles (whether they're real or not) in a thread dedicated to people who enjoy Marvel.

We get it. You're thrilled about Marvel's struggles.

Move on.

Let those of us who still enjoy Marvel to continue to do so.

I'm somebody that's gotten a little tired of Marvel in a lot of ways and yet... what I find "funny" about this particular person's complaints is the way they did it.

Tap-dancing on the apparent grave of Disney and notice the phrasing in that opening complain:

"Then new people stepped in with unappealing ideas, pushing unappealing characters,...alienated the audience.."

Sounds like somebody's happy that 'woke' Marvel is failing. How gauche.

 

[fireproof78]

And, some would say, Blade.

I would. Enjoyed Blade in the Spider-Man cartoon. Loved the first movie.

I'm somebody that's gotten a little tired of Marvel in a lot of ways and yet... what I find "funny" about this particular person's complaints is the way they did it.

Tap-dancing on the apparent grave of Disney and notice the phrasing in that opening complain:

"Then new people stepped in with unappealing ideas, pushing unappealing characters,...alienated the audience.."

Sounds like somebody's happy that 'woke' Marvel is failing. How gauche.

More, just playing the lyre as Rome burns, regardless of the reason. See also schadenfreude.

 

[theenglish]

I really like a lot of the new characters.

 

[Starscream2112]

Well, I for one enjoyed all the Marvel content this year except Secret Invasion. Looking forward to next year.

 

[Set Harth]

Loki really won me over for the most part. It's a shame that the Kang arc has seemingly come to an end prematurely.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Well, I for one enjoyed all the Marvel content this year except Secret Invasion. Looking forward to next year.

Likewise. A good range of enjoyable to utterly fantastic. A pity Secret Invasion was almost entirely a complete waste.

 

[Christopher]

I really like a lot of the new characters.

Yeah, it's mostly a very appealing bunch. The characters have been high points even when the stories have been underwhelming.

Well, I for one enjoyed all the Marvel content this year except Secret Invasion. Looking forward to next year.

I agree, except I also found Loki season 2 disappointing and rather pointless, although I enjoyed the performances of Ke Huy Quan and Wunmi Mosaku.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Less complaining, more observing the reality of the situation.

You must realize that observation about the MCU's many troubles is considered some sort of no-no.

We'll always still have the first 10 years of Marvel Studios at it's peak. It won't get there again.

I would not say it had a 10-year peak, but I agree their best efforts are a dot in their rear-view mirror with few bright spots released in the past few years. I seriously doubt anyone would say the MCU theatrical and streaming productions are getting better in any creative sense than the early MCU.

' Quantumania still lost hundreds of millions theatrically. It did not turn a profit regardless of streaming.

True.

"What If" is successful? Lol. Not even close. Wait for the Nielson ratings

Not sure about What If, but one wonders about the success rate of the most recent handful of streaming shows (aside from Secret Invasion, which is a known flop).

 

[JD]

Less complaining, more observing the reality of the situation.

I'm perfectly fine with Marvel (and Disney) in it's current state continuing to put out one failure after the next.

We'll always still have the first 10 years of Marvel Studios at it's peak. It won't get there again.



It's a pretty fascinating insight into the state of Marvel Studios post-Endgame. She's done her research. This talk about how they may pivot to 'Dr Doom' after the Jonathan Majors mess is playing out in real time.

Why do you hate the MCU so much? It seems like you're really enjoying this, more than just someone who's been disappointed by a couple movies.