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Spoilers PIC: Second Self by Una McCormack Review Thread

Rate PIC: Second Self

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The Kelvin films in no way meet the definition of that word. Especially the third one.

I think it's kind of amusing to take him at his word, and accepting that the most nightmarish, horrible, living-hell of a future he can think of is a glittering crystal city floating in space with miraculous technological amenities, full of millions of people from dozens of planets living and working side-by-side in peace and harmony.
 
I'm hardly in love with the Abramsverse, and much prefer the Prime Universe, but the closest things I see about the Abramsverse to "dystopian" are that (1) Kirk grew up without a father (without even even Diane Carey's mostly-absentee Geordie Kirk), and (2) Nero destroyed Vulcan with hijacked Red Matter (what a ridiculous name). On the plus side, the Abramsverse Pike apparently managed to escape his Prime Universe counterpart's unavoidable (as per SNW "A Quality of Mercy") fate.

Neigher of which (as CLB points out below) fit the definition of "dystopian."
 
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You gotta stop reading these things out of context. That’s in no way ‘disturbing’ if you actually read the stories that lead to it, and the ones that followed up it.

Please actually read the books and stop spoiling yourself on out of context wiki articles. It’s only hurting you even more.

I sort of have to second this. @Lynx , if you are getting your information about Garak’s fate just from a Memory Beta article, and have not actually read the book (sorry, I can’t recall whether you said you read it or not), then you are robbing yourself of not only context, but the emotional impact the story provides.

These stories aren’t just clinical character biographies that list facts about a person’s life. They are a tapestries woven together to hopefully immerse you in a world, and become emotionally invested in the characters’ struggles and triumphs. It’s been a while since I’ve read it, and my memory is not always the greatest, but I recall really enjoying Garak’s story in this book. Is it specifically what I would have done with him if I was writing something that brought Garak’s into the Picard timeframe? Probably not. But that’s part of the beauty of it, reading someone else’s take and being so moved by it, even if (or especially if!) it took a direction other than what you expected.

So you just might want to try the book first, before casting judgment. You can seldom go wrong with an Una McCormack book. You said yourself that you enjoyed some of her previous works, so maybe a little benefit of the doubt may not be out of line? You may find that you are moved in ways you weren’t expecting. If you’re worried about the cost of a novel that you may not end up liking, there is always the library. Or depending on where you’re located, you could wait for it to come up again on the 99-cent ebook sales.

That being said, if your preferred way of interacting with the stories is through Memory Beta articles, well, that is certainly your choice, and you can do as you wish. But I just think you may be shortchanging yourself… not only with the emotional connection, but even regarding spoilers. Garak’s involvement in this story was supposed to be a surprise, although admittedly many figured it out early.

And I do get that it can be disheartening if you were heavily invested in the novelverse’s depiction of post-series events. I miss the novelverse too, and I’m not trying to downplay that. But the reality is that the novelverse wasn’t going to be allowed to continue. Instead, we get different stories, and it’s interesting to see the characters end up in different places than we saw originally. And no, not everyone is going to agree with every choice made, but hopefully the stories are engaging enough that one can enjoy the journey, even if it’s not what they originally expected or wanted.
 
I'm hardly in love with the Abramsverse, and much prefer the Prime Universe, but the only dystopian things I see about the Abramsverse are that (1) Kirk grew up without a father (without even even Diane Carey's mostly-absentee Geordie Kirk), and (2) Nero destroyed Vulcan with hijacked Red Matter (what a ridiculous name).

Except that neither of those things remotely qualifies as dystopian. "Dystopian" doesn't just mean "bad stuff happening." A dystopia is specifically a political or social system that is openly oppressive, unjust, or harmful to its inhabitants, including a collapsed or post-apocalyptic society. The Mirror Universe is a dystopia. Cardassia under the Union or the Dominion was a dystopia. Beta III under Landru was a dystopia masquerading as a utopia. The chaotic quadrant in the wake of the Burn was a dystopia, at least in certain parts.

The only dystopian threads we've ever seen in the Federation, the only instances where an oppressive or destructive element came from the state or social structure itself rather than an external threat, were Section 31 and the synth ban. Well, and the ban on genetically engineered people. Often a society can be dystopian for some groups but not for others, depending on how the law treats them. But those are flaws in a mostly beneficial system.
 
I sort of have to second this. @Lynx , if you are getting your information about Garak’s fate just from a Memory Beta article, and have not actually read the book (sorry, I can’t recall whether you said you read it or not), then you are robbing yourself of not only context, but the emotional impact the story provides.

These stories aren’t just clinical character biographies that list facts about a person’s life. They are a tapestries woven together to hopefully immerse you in a world, and become emotionally invested in the characters’ struggles and triumphs. It’s been a while since I’ve read it, and my memory is not always the greatest, but I recall really enjoying Garak’s story in this book. Is it specifically what I would have done with him if I was writing something that brought Garak’s into the Picard timeframe? Probably not. But that’s part of the beauty of it, reading someone else’s take and being so moved by it, even if (or especially if!) it took a direction other than what you expected.

So you just might want to try the book first, before casting judgment. You can seldom go wrong with an Una McCormack book. You said yourself that you enjoyed some of her previous works, so maybe a little benefit of the doubt may not be out of line? You may find that you are moved in ways you weren’t expecting. If you’re worried about the cost of a novel that you may not end up liking, there is always the library. Or depending on where you’re located, you could wait for it to come up again on the 99-cent ebook sales.

That being said, if your preferred way of interacting with the stories is through Memory Beta articles, well, that is certainly your choice, and you can do as you wish. But I just think you may be shortchanging yourself… not only with the emotional connection, but even regarding spoilers. Garak’s involvement in this story was supposed to be a surprise, although admittedly many figured it out early.

And I do get that it can be disheartening if you were heavily invested in the novelverse’s depiction of post-series events. I miss the novelverse too, and I’m not trying to downplay that. But the reality is that the novelverse wasn’t going to be allowed to continue. Instead, we get different stories, and it’s interesting to see the characters end up in different places than we saw originally. And no, not everyone is going to agree with every choice made, but hopefully the stories are engaging enough that one can enjoy the journey, even if it’s not what they originally expected or wanted.

OK, here's the way it is:
I haven't been that happy with some of the different Star Trek Relaunch books. Too many good characters missing for different reasons and very few attempts to write them back in the stories again (here I have to give credit to Una MacCormack for writing in O'Brien in a more likable position in The never Ending Sacrifice than he got after the last DS9 episode).

Then I bought the masterpiece A Stitch In Time which I saw was written about one of my favorite characters.

While studying some comments about this books, I found that there were more books in which Garak was a prominent character so I bought The Crimson Shadow and The Never Ending Sacrifice which I highly enjoyed, especially The Never Ending Sacrifice because I've often wondered what happened to Rugal.

So I think: "Finally! Here are books that I really enjoy!" So I write some over-potimistic nonsense about Una McCormack has given me the faith in Star Trek books back again.

I should have known better.

After re-reading those books which I bought a year ago, I get the idea to look for similar books. I go to memory Beta where it's easy to find books and also find some sort of synopsis for them which I think is necessary since I'm not that inerersted in lnding inn some book about how Romulus was destroyed.

So I find The Enigma Tales but there were some disturbing comments about Bashir on Memory Beta so I continued to search and find that Garak had been killed off!

Then I find what Second Self is about and I have to admit that I wasn't that happy over that information.

I can actually agree with you that it's not the smartest thing to dismiss a book which I haven't read.

But on the other hand, woudn't it be even more stupid to pay a nice sum for something which I know I won't like?

Wouldn't it be smarter of me to start search for older books in which some of my favorite characters are stillalive and well and active? Unfortunately, the prices of older Trek books have seen significant increase in prices on Ebay or whatever to be found but I think it would be smarter to spend some money on such stuff.

it's actually sad that the Relaunch books weren't allowed to exist any longer because despite whatever flaws there were, it could at least be something interesting to read here and there.

Now the focus sems to be set on Picard when it comes to books with stories set in the 24th century and that's not a good scenario as I see it.


Except that neither of those things remotely qualifies as dystopian. "Dystopian" doesn't just mean "bad stuff happening." A dystopia is specifically a political or social system that is openly oppressive, unjust, or harmful to its inhabitants, including a collapsed or post-apocalyptic society. The Mirror Universe is a dystopia. Cardassia under the Union or the Dominion was a dystopia. Beta III under Landru was a dystopia masquerading as a utopia. The chaotic quadrant in the wake of the Burn was a dystopia, at least in certain parts.

The only dystopian threads we've ever seen in the Federation, the only instances where an oppressive or destructive element came from the state or social structure itself rather than an external threat, were Section 31 and the synth ban. Well, and the ban on genetically engineered people. Often a society can be dystopian for some groups but not for others, depending on how the law treats them. But those are flaws in a mostly beneficial system.

I can see that you are unhappy with my use of the word "Dystopian" when it comes to describing the scenarios in later Star Trek books, series and movies and also when it comes to describing the charming decade we live in and the previous one which have spawned most of the scenarios we see in movies, series and books.

OK, I admit that it can be a mis-use of a word which doesn't really fit what I'm describing.

But is there a better word for descibing a decade in which almost all movies, series and books are full of.......what should I call it? Let's say, dark scenarios.

I mean, back in the days we had movies, series and books about space exploration and a bright future ahead. Now we have movies, series and books where "space exploration" is about getting away from a destroyed Earth to some gloomy future without real hope. OK, that's not exactly for Star Trek but even Star Trek has been affected by current doom-and-gloom.

Back in the days we had seires like CSI and NCIS with action, good characters and even some humor. Now we have series with lousy characters, blood splattering torture scenes, a lot of doom-and-gloom and a dark future and downright boring characters and lousy stories. The same for books and movies.

All that in a decade in which the music sucks, the movies, TV series and books sucks and too many people are utterly convinced about everything is gonna go straight to hell.

If "Dystopian" isn't the right word for that, then what word can and should I use?

I'm not arguing, just asking. :shrug:
 
Re: Bashir

See, there's this guy called David Mack....

I do think Picard, across all three of it's runs, overplayed the darkness and insurmountable odds card. But if the other eps had been more akin to 3.10 I probably would have liked it more.

However, this doesn't stop me appreciating and enjoying the books. Last, Best Hope cuts rather too close to the total mess of the last few years, but it is also the best job that could be done for that material.

JIM'S Rios book was good and I'm expecting to enjoy Mack's upcoming Firewall. In this respect Second Self worked very well as a compact, complete tale.

Too tidy a new continuity? Well, with TV being so active now I can see why the books might want to be more cautious in what they do.
 
@Lynx a future TV series/movie can easily ignore what happened to Garak in this book.

Back in the days we had seires like CSI and NCIS with action, good characters and even some humor.
We still have series like that.

but there were some disturbing comments about Bashir
There's nothing disturbing about it if you actually read the story it leads to.

Also that story with Bashir, and Second Self here are in different universes/timelines.

Garak in the timeline with comatose Bashir
was head of the Cardassian government at one point. no exile, no making himself look Bajoran
 
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I really like the closure this deep and mature novel gives Garak. Which, as far as I understand, is not the Novelverse Garak.

I don't want any "closure" for Garak!

Darmok and Jelad at Tanagra!
(Couldn't resist.)

Rai and Jiri at Lungha.
Rai of Lowani. Lowani under two moons. Jiri of Ubaya. Ubaya of crossed roads at Lungha. Lungha, her sky grey. Rai and Jiri at Lungha.
;)


@Lynx a future TV series/movie can easily ignore what happened to Garak in this book.

I know.

But I think that the chances to see Garak in a future series or movie are very small. I don't even know if Andrew J Robinson want to do such a job anymore.


We still have series like that.
Do we? I haven't seen one.
Maybe NCIS? OK, I don't like the new characters which have been added. But the storytelling is still quite OK despite weak characters. Otherwise I've found nothing new and exciting.


There's nothing disturbing about it if you actually read the story it leads to.

Also that story with Bashir, and Second Self here are in different universes/timelines.
My head is aching because of all those timelines and universes.

OK; we have one universe/timeline in which Bashir is destroyed as it looks.
And then we have another universe/timeline in which Garak is destroyed and killed off.

Are there no universes/timelines in which none of them are destroyed?
 
Lynx, as far as I can see you're asking if there's a timeline across the ST media where Garak still has the potential to 'live happily ever after'. Then: the Novelverse isn't for you and the Picard timeline -- if you count the novels as establishing the part of the timeline -- which is, I guess, the continuation of the DS9 series, also isn't.

Of course there is a myriad of ways to tell good Garak stories in any timeline...
 
Insisting that the only acceptable ending for a character you like is to live happily ever after is really limiting oneself. It's good to let oneself embrace all the emotions that fiction can inspire, including sad and painful ones.

I also don't really see "happily ever after" being in character for Garak. When was his story ever a happy one? With so much torment and tragedy and guilt in his past, I think he'd always be haunted. I can believe he'd dedicate himself to trying to atone for his past in some way, but his driving impulse would be his sense of duty to Cardassia, not personal happiness. I doubt he'd believe he deserved happiness if he even believed it were a valid goal. I think he'd scoff at the idea of a "happy ending" as a naively romantic human conceit. Remember, in Cardassian mystery novels, everyone is guilty and it's just a question of who deserves which punishment.
 
Insisting that the only acceptable ending for a character you like is to live happily ever after is really limiting oneself. It's good to let oneself embrace all the emotions that fiction can inspire, including sad and painful ones.

I also don't really see "happily ever after" being in character for Garak. When was his story ever a happy one? With so much torment and tragedy and guilt in his past, I think he'd always be haunted. I can believe he'd dedicate himself to trying to atone for his past in some way, but his driving impulse would be his sense of duty to Cardassia, not personal happiness. I doubt he'd believe he deserved happiness if he even believed it were a valid goal. I think he'd scoff at the idea of a "happy ending" as a naively romantic human conceit. Remember, in Cardassian mystery novels, everyone is guilty and it's just a question of who deserves which punishment.

There's a young woman on YouTube who just finished watching Blake's 7 and one of her first reactions after the series finale was 'Why couldn't they have a happy ending?'
People pointed out in the comments that, realistically, there was never going to be a happy ending for Blake, Avon and the rest of the crew; the Federation was always going to win.
The same could be said for Garak and other Star Trek characters. There's not going to be what is considered a happy ending for them.
 
Thing is, I see Second Self as being a happy ending for Garak.

The cardassian he was as Tain's protégé would not have considered it as such, but who he became in his exile, in the Dominion War and afterwards, would have reason to reflect on his past, and if it were possible to do so, wish to atone for the excesses of his youth. He gets to do that.
 
Thing is, I see Second Self as being a happy ending for Garak.

The cardassian he was as Tain's protégé would not have considered it as such, but who he became in his exile, in the Dominion War and afterwards, would have reason to reflect on his past, and if it were possible to do so, wish to atone for the excesses of his youth. He gets to do that.

Good point. It's as much a redemption arc in its own way as the one in A Stitch in Time and subsequent novels.
 
Nah, Garak already got the happy ending he deserved in the series finale.
Finally, his exile was over. A triumphant return to Cardassia!

And on top of that, all of his old enemies were dead.

...Sure, they were just a few amongst the 800 million other deaths and Garak was standing in the ashes of his world, but you can't have everything. ;)
 
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