Race and culture in the Trek universe

[Nyotarules]

Just to keep the Social conservative thread free from this topic

 

[Forbin]

I think it's my post that brought this up? To whit:
I was in a discussion on FB recently about Uhura's famous "Sorry, neither" response to Sulu's "fair maiden" line. As I'm sure most of us old Trekkies realize, she was indeed referring to her beautiful skin tone, "fair" usually meaning light-skinned. One poster refused to believe she could possibly be referring to her race, because, he said, race should be ignored, and is never something to be joked about*, and he insisted "fair" merely meant "attractive." Now, why would she deny being attractive? Why would she not be proud of her heritage, and comfortable enough in it to make a pun about her beautiful skin tone in a stressful situation? Surely in the age of IDIC, we can be proud of our different heritages and appearances, while simultaneously affirming they don't matter in terms of rights, abilities, merit, etc.

*Paging Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, et al.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, one could regard "fair" as attractive, but the use of line in context suggest the age old stories around knights and "fair maidens" which would be a specific reference too light skin and virginity. The terminology is very specific.

Pulling this from the other thread:

I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of your culture. I do think there's a problem when pride goes to the point of exclusion. In the case of Chakotay's people, they're so "proud" of their culture that they decide that they can't share the same planet with other members of their species because of the threat to its purity.

To me, that's a form of self-imposed segregation that rejects the ability of diversity to thrive. Any attempt to keep a culture's "purity" causes me to give a side-eye because that word usually isn't associated with good things historically when it comes to a functioning and diverse civil society.

I agree, but that is the nature of humanity, is it not. To go "all in" on a particular aspect of ourselves, be it cultural, personal interest, hobby, sports team, or politics. I don't see why this would change in 300 years when humanity routinely utilized such passions across various cultures as part of identity expression.

In Star Trek we see several cultures become that insular and isolated, including human colonies, to the point of "purity" and fearing outside influence. Yes, I don't regard it as a positive but that doesn't mean it still won't happen, just because the vast majority of humanity regard cultural diversity a value, doesn't mean all will.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think it's my post that brought this up? To whit:
I was in a discussion on FB recently about Uhura's famous "Sorry, neither" response to Sulu's "fair maiden" line. As I'm sure most of us old Trekkies realize, she was indeed referring to her beautiful skin tone, "fair" usually meaning light-skinned. One poster refused to believe she could possibly be referring to her race, because, he said, race should be ignored, and is never something to be joked about*, and he insisted "fair" merely meant "attractive." Now, why would she deny being attractive? Why would she not be proud of her heritage, and comfortable enough in it to make a pun about her beautiful skin tone in a stressful situation? Surely in the age of IDIC, we can be proud of our different heritages and appearances, while simultaneously affirming they don't matter in terms of rights, abilities, merit, etc.

*Paging Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, et al.

If 'fair' is considered having a light skin tone, then in the TOS era there is nothing wrong with saying 'I am not fair, I am______', there would be no eurocentric hierarchy to worry about, being dark in skin tone would be as beautiful as being 'bronze' as a T'Pring Vulcan or 'fair' as blonde Rand and Chapel. Although in a universe that has green and blue people, what on earth would 'fair' mean anyway?

 

[Citiprime]

I agree, but that is the nature of humanity, is it not. To go "all in" on a particular aspect of ourselves, be it cultural, personal interest, hobby, sports team, or politics. I don't see why this would change in 300 years when humanity routinely utilized such passions across various cultures as part of identity expression.

In Star Trek we see several cultures become that insular and isolated, including human colonies, to the point of "purity" and fearing outside influence. Yes, I don't regard it as a positive but that doesn't mean it still won't happen, just because the vast majority of humanity regard cultural diversity a value, doesn't mean all will.

My issue is that, arguably, a central conceit of Star Trek is that humanity has changed beyond that. Just as they've gone beyond money and beyond the need for human religion, they've changed to see themselves differently. That in order to form United Earth and ultimately the Federation, we have cast away the "demons" of tribalism and borders amongst ourselves, leaving behind the divisions that almost led to our extinction to create something more.

If humanity was able to leave behind political divisions and nationalism to form a united world government, and ultimately the lines that divides species to unite with Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites to form the Federation, it becomes silly to hold on to those kind of cultural divisions to the degree of forming an entire society around the expression of a singular identity.

 

[fireproof78]

If humanity was able to leave behind political divisions and nationalism to form a united world government, and ultimately the lines that divides species to unite with Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites to form the Federation, it becomes silly to hold on to those kind of cultural divisions to the degree of forming an entire society around the expression of a singular identity.

But, why?

We still see smaller groups focus on elements of human culture in some way, but none would be groups I consider "mainstream" humanity. They either are out on colonies, or cloistered away by choice. I think this is an example of thinking one group is representative of the whole of humanity.

 

[Nyotarules]

My issue is that, arguably, a central conceit of Star Trek is that humanity has changed beyond that. Just as they've gone beyond money and beyond the need for human religion, they've changed to see themselves differently. That in order to form United Earth and ultimately the Federation, we have cast away the "demons" of tribalism and borders amongst ourselves, leaving behind the divisions that almost led to our extinction to create something more.

If humanity was able to leave behind political divisions and nationalism to form a united world government, and ultimately the lines that divides species to unite with Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites to form the Federation, it becomes silly to hold on to those kind of cultural divisions to the degree of forming an entire society around the expression of a singular identity.

Define cultural division. The USA region might still celebrate Thanksgiving, things like national Independance Days might be overshadowed with United Earth day or something or humanity might be mature enough to not be threatened by National Independance days.
For example, IRL UK nationals are not threatened by US celebrating July 4th, since the celebration is not a threat to us. Or you still trying to rub our faces in it lol
Dig a little deeper into Trek culture and one can argue that the premise is not that UE becomes a diverse culture that is not defined by tribalism but that UE becomes a global reflection of a 1960's fantasy American dream. If that was the real central conceit , its a narrow minded one.

 

[Farscape One]

Another interpretation of 'fair maiden' might be a 'damsel in distress', which would be something Uhura would never consider herself being. Uhura saying 'sorry, neither' could be her saying she is neither a damsel nor is she in distress.

 

[Forbin]

I think, I hope, we'll simply consider things like ethnicity a simple descriptor of the individual, like hair color and eye color. There is no value judgement attached to it, it's just part of us, to be embraced, not ignored ... "Hey, I'm looking for Forbin, could you tell me what he looks like?" "Sure - white guy, 5'10", brown hair, gray beard, brown eyes. Jersey accent." Also has a hard time explaining how he thinks.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think, I hope, we'll simply consider things like ethnicity a simple descriptor of the individual, like hair color and eye color. There is no value judgement attached to it, it's just part of us, to be embraced, not ignored ... "Hey, I'm looking for Forbin, could you tell me what he looks like?" "Sure - white guy, 5'10", brown hair, gray beard, brown eyes. Jersey accent." Also has a hard time explaining how he thinks.

And this is where we should be now. Maybe, one day.

 

[fireproof78]

I think, I hope, we'll simply consider things like ethnicity a simple descriptor of the individual, like hair color and eye color.

I would hope so. I certainly see no issue in people regarding their own personal, cultural, history and heritage as important. Why not? I know people who still use heraldry, and their ancestral markings, even if such things are largely personal value, and not culturally significant beyond, "Huh, interesting."

In Star Trek, we see people valuing or dismissing various cultural aspects from their own history, including Scotty's kilt, Worf's bladric, or Ro's dismissal of aspects of Bajoran faith, or B'Elanna struggling with Klingon aspects of her heritage.

It is not a far leap to consider, even in the future, that these things still have value, perhaps excessively so, to some members of humanity.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One poster refused to believe she could possibly be referring to her race, because, he said, race should be ignored, and is never something to be joked about*, and he insisted "fair" merely meant "attractive."

Since I am the curious type, I had to look it up. And he's correct that "fair" did mean attractive when the phrase "fair maiden" was coined. It morphed into meaning pale later. Still, there is no reason why Uhura can't make a homonym based joke about not being "fair".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In "The Savage Curtain," Uhura indicates that she is aware that she would have been considered black in Lincoln's time.

 

[Kor]

There was also the factor of the particular word that pseudo-Lincoln used to describe Uhura, which he realized that in his era, "some used that term as a description of property."

Kor

 

[UssGlenn]

Although in a universe that has green and blue people, what on earth would 'fair' mean anyway?

same as it does on earth, someone with a skin tone on the light end of the skin tint spectrum. An Aenar would be a fair skinned Andorian, and at the other end would be the Andorian Data showed Lal.

 

[James Cole]

One interesting conceit of the Star Trek universe is that there are tons of uninhabited class M planets that can settled by a few hundred humans. So many that several 22nd century ones were lost to time by the TNG era, or had collapsed inward like Turkana IV.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One interesting conceit of the Star Trek universe is that there are tons of uninhabited class M planets that can settled by a few hundred humans. So many that several 22nd century ones were lost to time by the TNG era, or had collapsed inward like Turkana IV.

They have?

 

[Forbin]

I would hope so. I certainly see no issue in people regarding their own personal, cultural, history and heritage as important. Why not? I know people who still use heraldry, and their ancestral markings, even if such things are largely personal value, and not culturally significant beyond, "Huh, interesting."

My Mom's Mom was Glaswegian, a Bruce. I love that, and I have a claymore mounted on a field of the Bruce tartan. Got Mom a sash and tam for one of her birthdays and she loved it. I have the Bruce coat of arms on a wall as well. On Dad's side, we're Dutch and English, with English ancestry having been in America since 1638, and the Dutch side having settled the county of NJ where I grew up. My wife is 3rd gen Sicilian and rightly proud of her ancestry and family. I can't imagine not being interested in and/or proud of one's heritage (if one knows it).

 

[Denise]

There's a moment in an episode where Spock is eavesdropping on a conversation between some crew members who are saying that there's no bigotry or prejudice any more, but we know he's experienced it both from humans and Vulcans. So I am pretty sure that one of the messages of the show is that even in that century, it hasn't been eliminated, which means we will likely always have to be vigilant.

 

[fireproof78]

it hasn't been eliminated, which means we will likely always have to be vigilant.

That is the price of freedom.