How Do Social Conservative Star Fans Enjoy Star Trek?

[Oddish]

Yes, it's a military. Yes, they use money. Moving on...

People might theorize that Trek is an overall progressive show, but in reality, it exists within a capitalist society. It's not like some aspects of the artistic community where you can make something disgusting and get your money... with this, you either please an audience or you go home. And while Trek did not try to please everyone, they created a mass market product... maybe a little on the progressive side, but not so much as to alienate the other side. And it worked for them.

 

[Forbin]

If you ever want to see an example of equity taken to a ludicrous level, you should read "Harrison Bergeron", a short story by Kurt Vonnegut.

Equity in its ideal form is shown in a poster I saw recently at one of the schools I pick up from... it had a tall man, an average sized woman, a child, and a paraplegic. Under EQUALITY, it gave all four identical bicycles. The woman was riding comfortably, the tall guy was painfully hunched over, the kid couldn't pedal while sitting, and the paraplegic wasn't even trying, for obvious reasons. The EQUITY picture had three different sizes of bicycle, plus a hand-operated one, enabling all four people to ride comfortably. That's the right kind of equity; it acknowledges that the tall guy is probably going to pedal a lot faster and farther than the other three (and doesn't stop him from doing so), but all four have the opportunity to perform as well as they can.

The problem is to extrapolate that relatively simple illustration into a complex world. And to deal with the people who think they "deserve" a motorcycle because they don't want to do any pedaling.

That seems very propagandistic to me. I'd think "equality" would give each and every person the opportunity to buy whatever kind of vehicle they want or need.

 

[Oddish]

That seems very propagandistic to me. I'd think "equality" would give each and every person the opportunity to buy whatever kind of vehicle they want or need.

The bicycles are a metaphor.

 

[Forbin]

Yeah, I like the idea that it's easier for a Federation teenager to decide they want to wander among one of the M-class planets well within Federation space and explore an uninhabited world, than it is for someone from our era to buy a boat and sail the world after high school.

Interestingly, my father did just that (well, not in a boat). The summer between his Jr and Sr years of high school, in 1938, he hopped in his Whippet and spend the summer driving all around the country. Said he left with $5, came home with $50, and learned welding and some other trades on the way. Kept telling me I should do the same thing when I was that age in 1974, but I thought it was a crazy idea . I don't think I'd driven more than 20 miles from home at that point.

 

[Forbin]

That seems very propagandistic to me. I'd think "equality" would give each and every person the opportunity to buy whatever kind of vehicle they want or need.

Yes, I was expanding on it.
Edit: or trying to.

 

[at Quark's]

Holy hell, not the money argument. It's like the is Starfleet military argument but even less fun.

I don't like it any more than you do, it's such a beaten horse.

But the problem is, when we're talking about inequality (or how to achieve more equality/equity/equal opportunities/ whatever in a society), money often acts as an amplification instrument of inequalities. Those that have lots of it can use it as an instrument to obtain even more of it and with it comes more power- that's how it often works in our society unfortunately. On the other hand, it's very hard to imagine an advanced society that would simply work on barter so some system has to be in place.

So when we're talking about a society that both runs an economy supposedly centuries more advanced than us, and on a much grander scale, and offers nearly unlimited opportunities for everyone, I think such a discussion cannot entirely be avoided if we really want to know how such a society would work. That is, unless you wish to hand wave the entire issue and just go with what is stated on screen (No money - post scarcity economy - humanity has a more evolved sensibility than in our time and only work to better themselves).

Which is fine by me, since that already was a deviation of the original topic (how conservatives enjoy Star Trek).

 

[Forbin]

Yeah, I like that better. Same with the skinny fumble-fingered kid who learned to not be afraid of the ball.

That was me! But alas, I never was good at sports, and the mocking never stopped. No participation trophies in the early 60s, just rejection.

 

[Oddish]

Interestingly, my father did just that (well, not in a boat). The summer between his Jr and Sr years of high school, in 1938, he hopped in his Whippet and spend the summer driving all around the country. Said he left with $5, came home with $50, and learned welding and some other trades on the way.

Reminds me of "The Car" by Gary Paulsen. Good book, but the ending was kind of abrupt.

That was me! But alas, I never was good at sports, and the mocking never stopped. No participation trophies in the early 60s, just rejection.

Same. I don't think my self-respect ever quite recovered.

 

[Tuskin38]

There are several instances of people saying they will buy things in the 23rd Century and a few in the 24th.
https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/economy.htm

The Bolians have a central bank, while it has never been directly stated that Bolians are federation members, there are a lot of them in Starfleet. Janeway once said a Vulcan merchant raised their prices when noticing she was Starfleet.

My head canon is that Earth no-longer has currency, not the entire Federation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Federation Credits were even mentioned in DSC (the ep with the bounty hunters and Harry Mudd).

 

[Lynx]

No problems I think since the issues in Star Trek takes place 300 years or so in the future when most of todays squabbles and conflicts are solved a long time ago.

I don't know how it is with the newer movies or series since I've watched very little of them. I gave up rather quickly on series like Enterprise, Discovery and Picard and never cared for the NuTrek movies. But I have no problems with TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY.

OK, there have been some minor things, like when Sisko refused to visit Vic Fontaine's holographic club since the scenario in it was 1962, a time when black people were discriminated.

That came out a bit ridiculous because (as Kasidy pointed out) it was made up as it should have been that time, not how it really was. Not to mention that black entertainers were highly appreciated in 1962, like Ray Charles, Chuck Berry, Cubby Checker etc.

it's a bit like if a a crewmember with Polish or Czech origin on the Enterprise should have refused to serve under Chekov "since his coutry invided mine 300 years ago".

Juts for your knowledge, Sisko is one of my absolute favorites in Star Trek so this is not an attack on the character, just pointing out a somewhat weird thing.

 

[Oddish]

In his defense, Sisko had experienced mid-century Anerican racism, in all its vileness. I could see it being a sore spot with him.

 

[JeffOakland]

Do I get a gold star for starting a 15 page thread?

 

[fireproof78]

Do I get a gold star for starting a 15 page thread?

Bronze.

Gold is 50.

 

[JeffOakland]

Federation Credits were even mentioned in DSC (the ept with the bounty hunters and Harry Mudd).

I always understood that Starfleet members don't get paid and that's how Starfleet attracts the people who want to be in SF so much, they'll work for free. Obviously, there's money in the future. Quark runs a casino and a whorehouse.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There are also numerous references to Federation credits, and Starfleet personnel being paid in them, in TOS.

 

[Tuskin38]

and a whorehouse.

uh, no?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

uh, no?

Yeah, I don't think Quark would stoop quite that low. In his own way, he does have kind of a moral code.

Dabo girls are highly sexualized of course. but only to distract the gamblers so they'll lose.

 

[JeffOakland]

Yeah, I don't think Quark would stoop quite that low. In his own way, he does have kind of a moral code.

Dabo girls are highly sexualized of course. but only to distract the gamblers so they'll lose.

It was heavily implied that the holosuites he rented out had prostitution programs. Do AI prostitutes count as "real" protitutes? I would think so since Data is allowed self-determination.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It was heavily implied that the holosuites he rented out had prostitution programs. Do AI prostitutes count as "real" protitutes? I would think so since Data is allowed self-determination.

If there are sex holosuite programs (and I'm sure there are) it doesn't make Quark a pimp. Holodeck characters are not sentient.