How Do Social Conservative Star Fans Enjoy Star Trek?

[fireproof78]

My mind is going blank on this mate - can you remind me of the context?

Apologies as my memory was in error. In "The Good Shepherd " Crewman Harren notes he needed one year of hands on experience to join a more prestigious Cosmology institute. He signed up for Starfleet and ended up stranded.

I suppose I made an assumption but I guess I assumed Starfleet experience was prioritized. Perhaps Starfleet was the easiest, but that strikes me as very dumb.

 

[Farscape One]

Our society unfortunately uses resource scarcity to essentially "reward" being born to the "right" parents, in the "right" country - the advantage conferred by going to the right school, and your parents working jobs that allow them more time at home to help their children with education, sport, music etc means that it is very difficult for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to break through that barrier and even access the opportunities.

You look at a Boris Johnson or a Liz Truss or a Jeremy Corbyn - they are in no way competent enough to have had the opportunities that they did but they got there for having been born into the right environment.

Human nature is unfortunately also still driven by tribal instincts and so where resource is scarce - say job roles or places at university - there is unconscious bias (sometimes not so unconscious) at play in many cases which lead people to favour offering the spot to someone from a similar background to themselves

Trek shows us a world where people don't have to worry about that but you still see prejudice at play (Sisko not wanting Jake to hang out with Nog is very relatable to what is seen in the real work with parents not wanting their kid to hang out with the "wrong" people) and instances of elitism (how Nova and Red Squad see themselves above the other cadets - very Bullingdon club)

I agree about your Nova Squadron example with the elitism... it is going to be around no matter what simply because of arrogance and people with an entitlement attitude.

But Ben not wanting Jake to hang around Nog was nothing more than a father wanting to protect his child. I saw nothing wrong with that reaction. (Keep in mind that the very first time we see Nog in the pilot, he's stealing supplies. And he got arrested for it. I don't think it's unreasonable for any parent to want to keep their kids away from someone who was a known criminal. Once he saw Jake teaching him how to read, notice how he softened up on Nog.)


Also, while there are some who have not had as many opportunities as others to succeed in school and later in life, that's not always the case. There are many people who come from basically poor neighboorhoods but do very well in school and lead really successful careers and lives as adults. (I've personally known multiple people who came from very poor circumstances but through hard work and brains, they got scholarships to great schools and went on to have really good jobs later.)

 

[Weyoun 251]

Apologies as my memory was in error. In "The Good Shepherd " Crewman Harren notes he needed one year of hands on experience to join a more prestigious Cosmology institute. He signed up for Starfleet and ended up stranded.

I suppose I made an assumption but I guess I assumed Starfleet experience was prioritized. Perhaps Starfleet was the easiest, but that strikes me as very dumb.

No worries dude - I remember now exactly what you mean.

Think that is something to keep in mind with how UFP operates - it is an equal base, not an equal ceiling. Daystrom for example is the sharpest of the sharpest mind and the UFP approach doesn't preclude that.

Think also that value should be placed in having experience of similar culture/values/DNA in an institution can also be an element of considering someone's suitability but that would likely be most important for bringing someone in at "management" level - Dept heads and similar - rather than more entry level where attitude and determination to learn are key

 

[Oddish]

In reality, certain resources will always be scarce and therefore there will always be conflicts about how to distribute them, and certain conflicts (like abortion) are fundamentally irreconcilable because they pit fundamental rights against one-another. ST squares that circle by never going into those questions too deeply-

Hence the cleverness of that scene in "The Child". Deanna's right to choose is crystal-clear... but she chooses life. Ergo, the pro-life and pro-choice crowd are both satisfied.

No child is deemed to be unruly because they have undiagnosed ADHD

Or autism spectrum disorder.

the fat kid deserves the "most improved" trophy, not a participation trophy. the participation trophy goes to the kids who don't improve all summer.

Yeah, I like that better. Same with the skinny fumble-fingered kid who learned to not be afraid of the ball.

Thank you. Kids should definitely be rewarded for their efforts, but simply showing up should not be a trophy.

Yes. To learn from your failures, it is essential that you not be led to believe that you succeeded.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I agree about your Nova Squadron example with the elitism... it is going to be around no matter what simply because of arrogance and people with an entitlement atti

But Ben not wanting Jake to hang around Nog was nothing more than a father wanting to protect his child. I saw nothing wrong with that reaction. (Keep in mind that the very first time we see Nog in the pilot, he's stealing supplies. And he got arrested for it. I don't think it's unreasonable for any parent to want to keep their kids away from someone who was a known criminal. Once he saw Jake teaching him how to read, notice how he softened up on Nog.)

With Nova Sqaud - and in line with what I said to Fireproof in my post above - UFP doesn't have a flat ceiling so there are prestigious institutions and you need a bit of ego and that to get there for sure and some will be snobby about it but that doesn't mean they aren't damn good at what they do. Jesus - Stamets is a right prick and thinks he is better than everyone. He does then back it up to be fair but also learns to soften up a bit

I didn't mean it to come across as negative as I made it as it is a reasonable reaction of a father but think was more reflective of current attitudes than what you'd expect in Trek of a more "well yeah the kid is troublesome but what if we gave them a chance because they have grown up on an occupied station and not had the same advantages we had"

It is a natural reaction whereas I guess I'd almost expect Trek to have a less relatable approach

 

[Farscape One]

With Nova Sqaud - and in line with what I said to Fireproof in my post above - UFP doesn't have a flat ceiling so there are prestigious institutions and you need a bit of ego and that to get there for sure and some will be snobby about it but that doesn't mean they aren't damn good at what they do. Jesus - Stamets is a right prick and thinks he is better than everyone. He does then back it up to be fair but also learns to soften up a bit

I didn't mean it to come across as negative as I made it as it is a reasonable reaction of a father but think was more reflective of current attitudes than what you'd expect in Trek of a more "well yeah the kid is troublesome but what if we gave them a chance because they have grown up on an occupied station and not had the same advantages we had"

It is a natural reaction whereas I guess I'd almost expect Trek to have a less relatable approach

No worries. I read the Sisko take as a negative because I've actually seen that example used negatively before. Sisko is my favorite captain, so I'm pretty quick to defend him.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Makes sense dude - I'm very much a "Sisko is my captain" guy too and he is absolutely the best example of a parent in the series (in part because he is so relatable - I will go nuts if I hear one more kid call their parents "father" or "mother" rather than "mum/mom" and "dad" which Jake was the first to really do).

 

[fireproof78]

Makes sense dude - I'm very much a "Sisko is my captain" guy too and he is absolutely the best example of a parent in the series (in part because he is so relatable - I will go nuts if I hear one more kid call their parents "father" or "mother" rather than "mum/mom" and "dad" which Jake was the first to really do).

Definitely do not observe my eldest and I interacting then.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Definitely do not observe my eldest and I interacting then.

Sorry mate - think it might be the Liverpool in me and certainly different cultural upbringings will make for different experience. Absolutely no offence was intended or any attempt to say that it was "wrong"

To phrase it better would be that them calling people "mother" or "father" felt far more deferential than it did loving - growing up over here the only examples of people speaking like that would be the upper class and would always be done in a very formal (to the point of feeling cold) way.

That said, simply the fact that people like Worf were just pretty bad parents probably contributed towards that impression and with Picard he was obviously very deeply impacted by what happened to his mum and what that did to his relationship with his dad (which we didn't know about until 2 years ago!) so that does change things a bit

 

[tomalak301]

I just wanted to say thank you all for this really interesting thread. Whenever I see posts like "Why do conservatives like Star Trek", I find that as a form of gatekeeping. I think it was someone earlier on who said those who had progressive values 20 years ago might be seen more as conservative today, and I do have some conservative values. Despite that, I have liked Star Trek all my life and agree with about 90% of it. Also, I like the space battles of DS9, or Best of Both Worlds, or just the action and fun. I feel like Star Trek offered something for everyone. If you wanted comedy, Star Trek had that. If you wanted Social commentary, Star Trek has that too. Human beings are complex, and today's Politics feel more like a team sport, where it's one team is better than the other and vice versa. It's why I try not to talk about my politics because it's not the most important thing about me. I watch Star Trek because I get a lot out of it, met a lot of cool and fascinating people, spent 20+ years on forums like this, and I find entertainment value from it. Does it mirror the real world? Yeah of course it does. Does it allow me to think philosophically about things and open my mind up to new ideas? Yeah that's why I love it. This exchange between Picard and Q is why I love Star Trek, and there is no political bent to it.

• Capt. Picard : I sincerely hope that this is the last time that I find myself here.
  
  Q : You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did.
  
  Capt. Picard : When I realized the paradox.
  
  Q : Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. *That* is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

 

[1001001]

Thank you. Kids should definitely be rewarded for their efforts, but simply showing up should not be a trophy.

I wonder if your kids share your enthusiasm for this parenting strategy?

In any event, as you already pointed out, the conditions children grow up with in the Federation make the whole “participation trophy” argument meaningless.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I mean, I have my ideas, but my preferred choices are not the point. The point is that if we see UFP society in depth, the writers would have to make choices in how they depict that society that will inevitably go against the political preferences of some segment of the audience (whichever segment that might be).

What is your ideas, I'm curious as to how you see "what is the solution to the problem you presented"?

 

[Farscape One]

I wonder if your kids share your enthusiasm for this parenting strategy?

In any event, as you already pointed out, the conditions children grow up with in the Federation make the whole “participation trophy” argument meaningless.

Bolded what I'm responding to.

My statements about participation trophies was a general one, and not targeted at anyone specific. Yours is targeting me specifically.

With all due respect, I thought the rule around here was we were supposed to make our point about a post, not the poster.

 

[1001001]

Bolded what I'm responding to.

My statements about participation trophies was a general one, and not targeted at anyone specific. Yours is targeting me specifically.

With all due respect, I thought the rule around here was we were supposed to make our point about a post, not the poster.

It was an honest question, not a statement.

If you don’t want to answer that’s fine.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Crewman Harren notes he needed one year of hands on experience to join a more prestigious Cosmology institute. He signed up for Starfleet and ended up stranded.

If "Crewmen Harren" was part of the surviving crew members (double checking Memory Alpha, he seems to have survived) when Voyager got back to the Alpha Quadrant, he's going to be the most famous applicant for the Institute of Cosmology on Orion I once he gets back. He'll definitely be a shoo-in and they'll want to ask him all sorts of things about the Delta Quadrant since he's the only applicant with IRL experience in the Delta Quadrant himself.

 

[Farscape One]

It was an honest question, not a statement.

If you don’t want to answer that’s fine.

Usually when someone makes a 'statement' like that, it's really a barely veiled attack on someone.

But if I misread that, my apologies.

 

[Mudd]

Why can't we have Star Trek: "Slice of Life"


Then why make those trophies anyways, if you lose, you lose. Why are there "Some Adults" who insist on making something to reward children, when there is no merit behind it?

Just accept it and move on.

Participation trophies exist for the parents' emotional comfort.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Participation trophies exist for the parents' emotional comfort.

Ah, IC

 

[Shawnster]

The UFP is supposed to be a society where everyone is equal, but Humans do seem to have more social power within the Federation than other species, for instance.

Do you have a for instance to your for instance? When have we seen examples of humans having more social power in the UFP than other member species?

 

[Finn]

Do you have a for instance to your for instance? When have we seen examples of humans having more social power in the UFP than other member species?

Their presence in Starfleet...And the colonies, outposts and the civilians (scientists, etc) usually were Human....