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How Do Social Conservative Star Fans Enjoy Star Trek?

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What would have been considered progressive about "The Cage" in 1965/1966 besides the first officer being female?

That is quite literally the main thing I was referring to due to the military context and the social climate at the time, I don’t think the cage is the most progressive thing ever by any means I just think in comparison to other media at the time it’s ignorant to deny that it was
 
Roddenberry claims part of the blowback he got from the network was because he refused to cast the show "sensibly," which according to Roddenberry meant "all white."
The Networks actually wanted non-white people on their shows in the 60s at the behest of corporations believing it would encourage non-white people to watch the show and buy things advertised in the commercials, as corporations were realizing at the time they couldn't thrive only catering to white people.
And one of the compromises between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is the disappearance of Number One, since it seems the network didn't think audiences were ready for a woman as the XO second-in-command.
In actuality, NBC had no problem with a female second in command, they requested Roddenberry recast the role with someone other than his girlfriend. Roddenberry responded by removing the character and telling the public it was because the Suits were afraid of women in authority.
 
The Networks actually wanted non-white people on their shows in the 60s at the behest of corporations believing it would encourage non-white people to watch the show and buy things advertised in the commercials, as corporations were realizing at the time they couldn't thrive only catering to white people.

In actuality, NBC had no problem with a female second in command, they requested Roddenberry recast the role with someone other than his girlfriend. Roddenberry responded by removing the character and telling the public it was because the Suits were afraid of women in authority.
I seem to have been previously misinformed thank you <3
 
In actuality, NBC had no problem with a female second in command, they requested Roddenberry recast the role with someone other than his girlfriend. Roddenberry responded by removing the character and telling the public it was because the Suits were afraid of women in authority.
I don't think they had no problem, given when we're talking about, but I do agree they were more concerned about Gene Roddenberry having Majel Barrett in the role. I think if another actress was cast, they would've found a way to come up with something, just like they didn't like the rest of the cast (except Jeffrey Hunter).

It's Captain, not First Officer, but I don't think they ever would've had a Female Captain as a Series Lead in the '60s, '70s, or '80s. I just don't see it. Even in the '90s, they were initially worried about how Captain Janeway would be received.

So I just don't buy the argument, "Sexism had nothing to do with it!" It was there, in the background, even if it wasn't what they said outright.
 
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That is quite literally the main thing I was referring to due to the military context and the social climate at the time, I don’t think the cage is the most progressive thing ever by any means I just think in comparison to other media at the time it’s ignorant to deny that it was

Im not trying to be dense, and I'm definitely not intending to argue with you (or anyone), but could you (or someone) cite or explain how "The Cage" would be considered progressive to the values of the mid 60s?

Im having a hard time seeing this. I understand your intentions and implications as they go back to earlier comments I've made in this and other topics such as what would be viewed as progressive in the 60s appears conservative today.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think the question posed by the thread is a false dichotomy.

There's plenty in Trek for a social conservative to admire: bravery, compassion, heroism, and so on. Plus, the messages in episodes are often conservative-ish: a recurring theme in Trek is that utopia is unobtainable or even undesirable (see: Kirk's rejection of the bliss given by the Omicron Ceti spores, the crew's rejection of the idle luxury offered by Mudd's androids, and so on. Trek canon also involves the concept that life can be separate from physical form... in other words, souls are a thing in the Trek universe. That's a concept taken from religion.

So, really, I reject the idea that Trek stands in opposition to what we call conservatism.
 
What Zapp said, in a nutshell. Trek has always been a lot more conservative-friendly (politically and socially alike) than many people realize.

Steve Shives might disagree, but since he refuses to listen to conservatives (not an accusation by me, an admission by him), he's not an ideal authority.

What is often forgotten is how many values - like those Zapp listed - which appeal to both
 
There's plenty in Trek for a social conservative to admire: bravery, compassion, heroism, and so on. Plus, the messages in episodes are often conservative-ish: a recurring theme in Trek is that utopia is unobtainable or even undesirable (see: Kirk's rejection of the bliss given by the Omicron Ceti spores, the crew's rejection of the idle luxury offered by Mudd's androids, and so on. Trek canon also involves the concept that life can be separate from physical form... in other words, souls are a thing in the Trek universe. That's a concept taken from religion.

So, really, I reject the idea that Trek stands in opposition to what we call conservatism.
I would argue that instead of rejecting the idea of an obtainable utopia, Star Trek rejects false utopias and any societal system where the order is predicated in irrational belief or ideology.

Any situation that isn't based in a reality or facts is fundamentally rejected in a sort of atheistic position that rejects the idea that people need to serve a higher entity in ways that defy common sense (e.g., "What does God need with a starship?"). It's the equivalent of any time someone says we have to do it this way or pass a law because Jesus/Muhammad/Xenu wants it that way, and people pointing out that it doesn't make any damn sense. Questioning traditional arrangements and wondering why we have to do things the way we've always done it is about as antithetical to social conservativism as something could be.

Beyond that, whether or not Trek believes utopia/paradise is possible is debatable, but the franchise does believe in the evolution of humanity itself towards perfection.

Q: Perhaps maybe a little Hamlet?

PICARD: Oh, no. I know Hamlet. And what he might said with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man. How noble in reason. How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god.

Q: Surely you don't really see your species like that, do you?

PICARD: I see us one day becoming that, Q. Is it that what concerns you?

*Q Rage Quits*​
The Networks actually wanted non-white people on their shows in the 60s at the behest of corporations believing it would encourage non-white people to watch the show and buy things advertised in the commercials, as corporations were realizing at the time they couldn't thrive only catering to white people.
That might have been a stated goal, but I have a hard time taking any pronouncement by NBC or other TV networks and studios in the 1960s seriously given that here in the 21st century adequate representation of people of color on TV and in movies is still an issue.

There's a difference between putting out a memo that's good PR which placates interest groups that you're "trying" to do something, and the conversations that happen behind-the-scenes when actually doing it. My feeling is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Roddenberry probably exaggerated his importance in getting a diverse cast, but it would not surprise me if there were arguments about how diverse the cast should be, and I would not be surprised if there were conversations about whether the series needed as much diversity as it had.
 
I just want to be able to watch a show and then discuss it here without being accused of being a racist, sexist or homophobic because I disagree with something on the show. People are complex and don't necessarily fit into specific categories of thinking no matter how much you try to force them.

I think that's a good point. And disliking a character who happens to be a given race, sex, or orientation is not necessarily a dislike of that particular race, sex, or orientation. Sometimes, someone just rubs you the wrong way.

One Trek episode that both sides might claim as their own is "The Drumhead", because of the witch hunt that ensues. Since both sides have had their right to free speech questioned by assorted powers that be, both will appreciate Aaron Satie's words. Especially now, when omnipresent recording devices and AI-fueled analysis make Big Brother more feasible than ever.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think the question posed by the thread is a false dichotomy.

There's plenty in Trek for a social conservative to admire: bravery, compassion, heroism, and so on.

And that so on also includes what draws social liberals to Trek. Someone can identify as social conservative yet still champion equal rights or equal pay for equal work.

Likewise, someone can identify as socially liberal and advocate for the right to have guns.

People aren't either or. Not all moral/ethical social conservatives believe the same, nor do all social liberals. The idea, as presented in the OP title is a false dichotomy because it implies that that all social conservatives believe the same.
 
I think that's a good point. And disliking a character who happens to be a given race, sex, or orientation is not necessarily a dislike of that particular race, sex, or orientation. Sometimes, someone just rubs you the wrong way.

One Trek episode that both sides might claim as their own is "The Drumhead", because of the witch hunt that ensues. Since both sides have had their right to free speech questioned by assorted powers that be, both will appreciate Aaron Satie's words. Especially now, when omnipresent recording devices and AI-fueled analysis make Big Brother more feasible than ever.

They key is how the dislike of a character is phrased I think - especially being careful when things slide too closely into tropes used by people who do hold such prejudices.

You can not like Stamets for example - he is an arsey bugger for sure who will talk back to you in a way uncommon in much of prior Trek (although those engineers do have a snarky side as standard historically) - but people complaining about seeing a gay couple is not a reasonable issue in my mind.

Think sometimes language used, especially when giving the reaction feedback to episodes, can be clumsy (as we are all guilty of sometimes) and can come across as expressing something one didn't actually mean to.
 
Exactly. I like Stamets, irascible as he is, and I like that they presented him not as a gay guy but a very human guy who is brilliant and flawed and just happens to be gay. But I can see where some people might have issues with his personality. And if they admit this, the HOMOPHOBIC hue and cry goes up. Just as if a person points out that as captain, Chakotay actually promoted people... someone hits the MISOGYNY panic button.
 
Just as if a person points out that as captain, Chakotay actually promoted people... someone hits the MISOGYNY panic button.

Since he is moving up the ladder, doesn't he have to promote people? You have to have vacancies to move people up. It is an apples to oranges comparison.
 
Its a very tight line to walk - and I do think people who have suffered prejudice might be less inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is teetering on that line as it does damage your trust in people.

This is a generally friendly site though and the mods do a damn good job keeping things civil so those who are clearly prejudiced don't last long.

Hard sometimes to remember to consider the "opposing" poster's background and that they won't have lived the same experiences as you have and so may not be intending to cause any harm - the ones who are genuine tend to also be the ones who can explain what they intended if called out and people come to an understanding with them fortunately
 
You have to have vacancies to move people up.
You really don't, lots of characters (including both of Voyager's promotion recipients) get higher ranks without changing jobs.

Be that as it may, if you feel that it's an apple/orange comparison, you can explain this without launching accusations that the person hates women.
 
Be that as it may, if you feel that it's an apple/orange comparison, you can explain this without launching accusations that the person hates women.

If you read carefully, you'll see that I'm actually supporting Janeway's position.
 
If you read carefully, you'll see that I'm actually supporting Janeway's position.
My point. If I say "in at least one way, Chakotay was a better captain than Janeway: he promoted people", you can do one of two things...
1. Explain your perspective, as you did.
2. Accuse me of hating women, which you did not.

Your response was the reasonable one, and the one that allows for meaningful dialogue or debate. Irrational accusations don't.
 
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