Cardassians in TOS

[Poltargyst]

I can roll with some things like Chapel being an ex,

Spoiler

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/10.htm
What Are Little Girls Made Of?

CHAPEL: Have you ever been engaged, Mister Spock?

Strange indeed that Chapel could be an old girlfriend of Spock's as seen in SNW but not know anything about T'Pring.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

True. Kirk and company will still act as if they've never heard of the Gorn before.

Given that they didn't do so in the original, then I don't see that as a requirement.

KIRK: All scanners lock into computer banks. I want a complete record of this. Mister Spock, what do we have on this general area?
SPOCK: Virtually nothing, Captain. No records of any explorations. There are rumours of certain strange signals on subspace channels. However, none has ever been recorded.
KIRK: Anything on intelligent life forms?
SPOCK: Nothing specific, Captain. Unscientific rumours only. More like space legends.

So, we can reasonably assert that Cestus III is not in the same region as the Parnassus and Finibus systems so they didn't immediately make the connection between the rumours from that unexplored region and the Gorn.

KIRK [OC]: The Enterprise is dead in space, stopped cold during her pursuit of an alien raider by mysterious forces, and I have been somehow whisked off the bridge and placed on the surface of an asteroid, facing the Captain of the alien ship. Weaponless, I face the creature the Metrons called a Gorn.

Given that the TOS!Gorn has less in common with ENT!Gorn (known at least a century before Arena) than we do with most monkeys, then Kirk's confusion on the Metron's ID is understandable IMO.

YMMV.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Spoiler

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/10.htm
What Are Little Girls Made Of?

CHAPEL: Have you ever been engaged, Mister Spock?

Strange indeed that Chapel could be an old girlfriend of Spock's as seen in SNW but not know anything about T'Pring.

Easy, I reinterpret it as Chapel throwing some rhetorical sass at Spock, even though that was not the intent when originally written.

I’ve done the same with “Space Seed”, which originally stated that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were one and the same.

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

At the time McCoy was simply clarifying what the name of that “last” world war was, but given how they’ve been separated by decades in later retconning, I can reinterpret Bones’ line as correcting Spock. “No, Mr Spock, not WWIII, the Eugenics Wars”.

Again, obviously not the intent in 1967. But that’s how I can interpret it today with how WWIII became a totally separate event from the Eugenics Wars.

 

[Albertese]

....
Again, obviously not the intent in 1967. But that’s how I can interpret it today with how WWIII became a totally separate event from the Eugenics Wars.

Wait didn't SNW S1E1 make it so the Eugenics War, the Second American Civil War, an WWIII were all one chain of events? More or less continuous? Then ins Season 2, there is the line form the Romulan agent in 21st Century Canada letting us know that baby Kahn in the 2020s was supposed to have been a ruling adult in the 1990s but time travel shenanigans changed everything?

I'm perfectly happy with the idea that what we're seeing in SNW is an alternate universe. In my head canon, The Prime TOS universe leads to TNG through Voyager more or less as seen on TV, and the 21st Century events of Star Trek First Contact spun off an alternate universe which contains Star Trek Enterprise and SNW is the subsequent universe from that timeline.

--Alex

 

[Phaser Two]

Because it’s fun? Because it would be different to see what the Cardassians were like in the 23rd century vs the 24th? That’s just my view. You don’t share it, fair enough.

That poster's general standpoint is that nothing on screen should be debated because doing so is pointless, and as an apparent corollary of that, analysis of just about anything in Star Trek is lame and worthy of derision. It's a take, certainly, and worthy of respect. Why one would harbor such views and yet hang around to express them on the regular on a message board devoted to . . . well, discussion and analysis of Star Trek, as it happens . . . is another question.

By the way, did anyone mention yet that the Organian duo in ENT's "Observer Effect" knew about the Cardassians? Which, of course, doesn't mean that Starfleet did, but the Cardassians had visited the same space, at least.

 

[Dukhat]

KIRK [OC]: The Enterprise is dead in space, stopped cold during her pursuit of an alien raider by mysterious forces, and I have been somehow whisked off the bridge and placed on the surface of an asteroid, facing the Captain of the alien ship. Weaponless, I face the creature the Metrons called a Gorn.

There are only two ways to interpret this dialogue:

1. The way the writer intended: Kirk and his crew have never heard or seen these aliens before, had never heard the name 'Gorn" before, and are just now being told their name by the Metron, and the log is written accordingly that this is the first time the term 'Gorn' has been used.

2. The way fans want to retcon the dialogue to fit into SNW: Kirk and his crew definitely know who the Gorn are despite none of them acting that way, but because they've never met the guy-in-rubber-suit version, they assume it's not a Gorn until the Metron tells them otherwise. No mention whatsoever in the log that the Gorn now look different from what Kirk was used to seeing. And this, despite multiple instances in Star Trek of the Klingons looking nothing alike and the crew not batting an eye about wondering if they are in fact Klingons.


This is a prime example of obsessive-compulsive fans jumping through hoops to justify what SNW shows them, in an attempt to 'fit' it into TOS continuity. And fans are welcome to do this, because the producers certainly aren't losing any sleep over it. Myself, I do not need to justify some retcon and try to shoehorn it into the continuity of a 55+ year old show; I just treat that show as a reboot.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Wait didn't SNW S1E1 make it so the Eugenics War, the Second American Civil War, an WWIII were all one chain of events? More or less continuous? Then ins Season 2, there is the line form the Romulan agent in 21st Century Canada letting us know that baby Kahn in the 2020s was supposed to have been a ruling adult in the 1990s but time travel shenanigans changed everything?

I'm perfectly happy with the idea that what we're seeing in SNW is an alternate universe. In my head canon, The Prime TOS universe leads to TNG through Voyager more or less as seen on TV, and the 21st Century events of Star Trek First Contact spun off an alternate universe which contains Star Trek Enterprise and SNW is the subsequent universe from that timeline.

--Alex

America having a second civil war was definitely an SNW invention (if I’m correct). Like, okay, the 21st century already seemed to be a mess as it was, so now Akiva Goldsman adds that to the mix.

And now with that alteration in “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow” Goldsman does seem to have made the Eugenics Wars and WWIII at least play out near succession, and it wasn’t done just to align it with how TOS stated them being one and the same, but that rather according to Goldsman in an interview, he simply thought having the Eugenics Wars in the 90s was apparently something he strongly felt needed to be “fixed”.

I don’t really care whether the Eugenics Wars is in the 1990s or 2040s, but I do kind of roll my eyes that he bothered to address that at all as if it was something of great importance that needed any fixing. That’s just another indication of how current writers have seriously overinflated the importance of Khan in Star Trek. Like… GET OVER STAR TREK II. Khan isn’t supposed to be some great arch nemesis like Darth Vader or the Joker for this franchise.

 

[drt]

I don’t really care whether the Eugenics Wars is in the 1990s or 2040s, but I do kind of roll my eyes that he bothered to address that at all as if it was something of great importance that needed any fixing. That’s just another indication of how current writers have seriously overinflated the importance of Khan in Star Trek. Like… GET OVER STAR TREK II.

Roddenberry was more than happy to ignore the Eugenic Wars when TNG moved WW3 to the mid 21st century, because in 1987 they knew such a thing wasn't going to happen in five years. Unfortunately, in the intervening years ST2 has become the holiest of holies, and any discrepancy must be addressed I guess.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I wonder how they'd look? Just grey-skinned humans, I suppose.

Probably, yes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Probably, yes.

Maybe with dots.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe with dots.

Like, a forehead dot, possibly tear-shaped? Maybe, sure.

The problem could be consistency of the position of the dots on each actor from shooting day to shooting day. When we're talking about extras, it would have to be cost-effective.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

2. The way fans want to retcon the dialogue to fit into SNW:

And Enterprise.

Kirk and his crew definitely know who the Gorn are despite none of them acting that way, but because they've never met the guy-in-rubber-suit version, they assume it's not a Gorn until the Metron tells them otherwise.

They declare that some.. mysterious unidentified space threat that is in any area with no known threats... is unidentified until a third party identifies them. At which point this fact is noted in Kirk's log.

Yes, it's a retcon but it holds together logically IMO.

And this, despite multiple instances in Star Trek of the Klingons looking nothing alike and the crew not batting an eye about wondering if they are in fact Klingons.

Again, the idea that some Klingons look more like humans and some don't has been known to Starfleet since prior to the founding of the Federation, I'm pretty sure most Starfleet officers have their surprise on that point out of their system.

Again, not sure why this is an objectively difficult idea for you to accept?

 

[Shawnster]

So, we can reasonably assert that Cestus III is not in the same region as the Parnassus and Finibus systems so they didn't immediately make the connection between the rumours from that unexplored region and the Gorn.

Given that the TOS!Gorn has less in common with ENT!Gorn (known at least a century before Arena) than we do with most monkeys, then Kirk's confusion on the Metron's ID is understandable IMO.

They declare that some.. mysterious unidentified space threat that is in any area with no known threats... is unidentified until a third party identifies them. At which point this fact is noted in Kirk's log.

All this takes us back to the conclusion that the organization charged with the defense of the Federation from foreign aggression does a pitifully poor job of keeping captains and ships on the frontier abreast of intelligence reports, threat assessments, and possible points of concern or conflict with known hostiles.

Not recognizing Cestus III was Gorn territory, nor recognizing the aggressor was Gorn is an inexcusable failure of Starfleet intelligence.

 

[darrenjl]

Midjourney AI results for Star Trek 1960s style Cardassians.

 

[Nyotarules]

All this takes us back to the conclusion that the organization charged with the defense of the Federation from foreign aggression does a pitifully poor job of keeping captains and ships on the frontier abreast of intelligence reports, threat assessments, and possible points of concern or conflict with known hostiles.

Not recognizing Cestus III was Gorn territory, nor recognizing the aggressor was Gorn is an inexcusable failure of Starfleet intelligence.

Have you met Starfleet Command ?

 

[Shawnster]

Top left, the guy in the gray looks pretty good for a 60s Cardassian. Maybe too good for TOS budget.

I was thinking they'd look more along the lines of an all white Bele or Lokai.

 

[Poltargyst]

Easy, I reinterpret it as Chapel throwing some rhetorical sass at Spock, even though that was not the intent when originally written.

I’ve done the same with “Space Seed”, which originally stated that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were one and the same.

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

At the time McCoy was simply clarifying what the name of that “last” world war was, but given how they’ve been separated by decades in later retconning, I can reinterpret Bones’ line as correcting Spock. “No, Mr Spock, not WWIII, the Eugenics Wars”.

Again, obviously not the intent in 1967. But that’s how I can interpret it today with how WWIII became a totally separate event from the Eugenics Wars.

Okay, how about

Spoiler

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cardassians-in-tos.314352/page-5#post-14640778
Amok Time

T'PRING [on viewscreen]: Spock, parted from me and never parted, never and always touching and touched. I await you.
UHURA: She's lovely, Mister Spock. Who is she?

Given what we've seen on SNW, how does Uhura not know who T'Pring is in Amok Time?

If SNW was actually in the same continuity with TOS, you wouldn't have to say "well this was the intent in 1967, but now to make it fit with SNW I'm going to change it to..." You wouldn't have to do that because the intent of SNW would be the same as the intent in TOS. It would just fit. I don't feel the need to jump through hoops to try to make SNW the same continuity with TOS when the producers of SNW are clearly not making any such effort themselves.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Not recognizing Cestus III was Gorn territory, nor recognizing the aggressor was Gorn is an inexcusable failure of Starfleet intelligence.

Well, we could assume that either it wasn't until recently or that Starfleet's presence in that particular sector is a recent development.

Part of the problem is that the Gorn ship that attacks the outpost is the first "hard contact" for the unknown aggressor in the area, and at minimum there are no reports from survivors of other contacts, so all they have to go on is random subspace signals that perhaps don't even follow standard language (Gorn equivalent of Morse Code perhaps).

Still a problem to be sure, but a plausible one IMO in response to a change in the status quo.

YMMV.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Okay, how about

Spoiler

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cardassians-in-tos.314352/page-5#post-14640778
Amok Time

T'PRING [on viewscreen]: Spock, parted from me and never parted, never and always touching and touched. I await you.
UHURA: She's lovely, Mister Spock. Who is she?

Given what we've seen on SNW, how does Uhura not know who T'Pring is in Amok Time?

If SNW was actually in the same continuity with TOS, you wouldn't have to say "well this was the intent in 1967, but now to make it fit with SNW I'm going to change it to..." You wouldn't have to do that because the intent of SNW would be the same as the intent in TOS. It would just fit. I don't feel the need to jump through hoops to try to make SNW the same continuity with TOS when the producers of SNW are clearly not making any such effort themselves.

Have they actually met in SNW? I can’t recall.

Spoiler

I am glad you bring that moment up because it wasn’t Uhura’s question that signaled bad continuity for me but rather the seemingly surprised look from Chapel, who has definitely met T’Pring in person. But if one has to determine what she’s surprised about, perhaps it was Spock’s “my wife” statement that took her aback when she only knew they were merely engaged before. And that in the next act he clarified they weren’t technically husband and wife.

 

[drt]

I like this guy as a TOS Cardassian. Presumably, much like the Klingons, in the original production they'd just use some makeup, there wouldn't be the latex prosthetics, etc., of the later productions.