Cardassians in TOS

[somebuddyX]

I think it depends on the context of their original creation, like I feel the Ferengi were a mistake in Enterprise due to the events around their first contact, but there's no reason that the Cardassians couldn't show up there and be seen and named in the same way the Ferengi appeared as just that one ship. It doesn't change anything and doesn't try to be cute about circumventing canon. (Obviously they did show up in "Dead Stop" but that's not the same)

 

[Ssosmcin]

It’s been established in dialogue that Cardassians, Trills, and Bajorans were known neighbors in the 23rd century. Just because we didn’t see them until TNG doesn’t mean they were never around in TOS. There are so many species out there.

It - is - a big galaxy. Kirk had other things to worry about.

 

[Herbert]

I don't think it would be a retcon, as DS9 establishes lots of interactions with Cardassians and UFP folks in the 23rd Century period. Having them in SNW would be a welcome cameo IMHO.

--Alex

Maybe in the strict sense of the word, it's not a retcon but the result is the same. Taking events in later series and retroactively applying them to what came before. Not a fan. It's almost like they want to take the larger more explored galaxy that we see in TNG/DS9 and use that as an excuse to embiggen (it's a perfectly cromulent word) the much smaller seeming explored galaxy we see in TOS.

 

[suarezguy]

Cardassians would feel pretty out of place with the substance/tone of the original show, it was so much about that Kirk would somehow always save the day and set things right, aside from Klingons as (actually pretty rarely) recurring villains and even they could usually be pretty quickly fought to standstill, but the point of Cardassians is that they are pretty insidious, involved in long advancing schemes as well as regularly oppressing some neighbors (as well as themselves). I do think it is a bit of a fault with the original that Kirk wasn't able to sometimes be shown to fail, to have to deal with and not succeed against characters like Cardassians and it was improvement that later shows did have characters like them.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Just to be clear, I’m NOT suggesting the Cardassians be brought in as antagonists in SNW. Chronologically, they really shouldn’t become antagonists until shortly after TUC once the military took over. By Kirk’s time they were a peaceful civilization having a post-warp renaissance era, at peace with their Bajoran neighbors.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I do think it is a bit of a fault with the original that Kirk wasn't able to sometimes be shown to fail, to have to deal with and not succeed against characters like Cardassians and it was improvement that later shows did have characters like them.

That was simply episodic TV of the time. The lead character won. Kirk, Admiral Nelson, Steve Austin, Logan, Burke, Verdon and Galen, it was the name of the game. And Picard prevailed over the Cardassians time and again. DS9 was really the beginning of that kind of serialization because the setting of the series was stationary and by then the style of storytelling was more true to life.

The original series didn't need the Cardassians because the Klingons and, to a lesser degree, the Romulans served that purpose.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I like the idea that first contact with the Cardies was sometime during the TNG movie era, probably post-TUC. That gives them most of a century for a buildup that first border war that O'Brien took part in. Plus, it 'spreads out the goodies' a bit, for lack of a better term. All TOS references to the Cardassians come after their first appearance in TNG. I don't like those sort of retcons, and most happen because some idiot writer is trying to work in a little fan service- Uhura's 'Cardassian Sunrise' drink in JJTrek is a classic example of that. Whoever wrote that probably didn't know the difference between TOS and TNG, but thought they were oh so cool.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I don't like those sort of retcons, and most happen because some idiot writer is trying to work in a little fan service- Uhura's 'Cardassian Sunrise' drink in JJTrek is a classic example of that. Whoever wrote that probably didn't know the difference between TOS and TNG, but thought they were oh so cool.

That’s a lot of projection there. I’m very critical of Orci and Kurtzman, but Uhura mentioning a Cardassian drink wouldn’t be egregious in my book.

I think it’s fun when writers tie things in subtle ways, at least as long as it’s not contradictory. There’s nothing officially stated that humans only made first contact with Cardassians after TUC, so it’s not exactly egregious to suggest that they did even before Pike’s command. Now, if the Cardassians were presented in the TOS era just as they were in TNG, then I would definitely cry foul. We know definitively that humans only made first contact with the Ferengi in the 24th century, so they would be out of bounds for SNW (though that didn’t stop Berman and Braga).

One tie-in I always liked in TUC was that peace between the Klingons and the Federation was established at Khitomer, which became Worf’s home planet before he was orphaned. That was a planet not established until TNG’s “Heart of Glory”. For whatever reason, Nimoy and Meyer really wanted to tie in the two eras, and having climax of the film take place in Khitomer was one of their ways of doing that. Of course there’s also Colonel Worf, which was probably a bit much, but Nimoy and Meyer aren’t known for their subtlety.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I think it’s fun when writers tie things in subtle ways, at least as long as it’s not contradictory. There’s nothing officially stated that humans only made first contact with Cardassians after TUC, so it’s not exactly egregious to suggest that they did even before Pike’s command.

It can cause issues, however, because of how these tie-ins are treated later. I call this syndrome WYSIATI: What You See Is All There Is. The problem is that every offhand line, quip, statement, etc. by any character in a movie or show, however minor, is immediately sworn into canon no matter how nonsensical it might be, internally inconsistent, or how it disregards the possibility of a character speaking in hyperbole, exaggerating, or flat-out misremembering a historical fact. Every tidbit is taken as GOSPEL, because WYSIATI.

And then every writer / content creator who comes later has to honor it, because now it's canon. Or they risk the fanbase erupting in righteous nerd-rage at the first contradiction.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I don’t mind it. Just as I didn’t mind the introduction of Denobulans, Suliban, and Xindi in ENTERPRISE, despite never seeing their presence in the following two centuries. Just because we hadn’t seen them in those eras doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been around before. Sort of like how Andorians, Tellarites, and Orions seemed to be nearly or completely absent in the 24th century. We simply didn’t come across them in that era, just as we didn’t see the Cardassians depicted in the 23rd century (so far).

 

[Herbert]

There’s nothing officially stated that humans only made first contact with Cardassians after TUC, so it’s not exactly egregious to suggest that they did even before Pike’s command.

Okay, but what's the point? Just because they could have had contact in Pike's time doesn't mean that they did. Where does it end? Do we just retroactively take all these cultures and say they were always there and encountered in whatever era we want? It's just more stereotypical trekker fan wankery.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Okay, but what's the point? Just because they could have had contact in Pike's time doesn't mean that they did. Where does it end? Do we just retroactively take all these cultures and say they were always there and encountered in whatever era we want? It's just more stereotypical trekker fan wankery.

Because it’s fun? Because it would be different to see what the Cardassians were like in the 23rd century vs the 24th? That’s just my view. You don’t share it, fair enough.

 

[Shawnster]

Because it would be different to see what the Cardassians were like in the 23rd century vs the 24th?

It is clear they existed in the 23rd century. They didn't just suddenly appear on the scene. Plus, we have the previous Dax host meeting a Cardassian on Vulcan (regardless which one was exiled ).

I don't like the Ferengi showing up prior to TNG, though, because the whole point of Picard's backstory with the Stargazer was that he encountered an unknown adversary. Prior contact with the Ferengi would have made them a known quantity.

Of course, Kirk and the entire Enterprise crew couldn't recognize the Gorn despite all the previous encounters in Pike's era.

 

[Albertese]

I wouldn't use Cardassians in the 23rd C as fascist antagonists as per the TNG+ era. We are told that the pre-military coup, the Cardassians were a culture that enshrined art and literature and religion, but were decaying economically, which led to the fascists taking over. I'd love to see that version of the Cardassians. There's absolutely a story in there that would fit the SNW format. It need not and should not repeat what we've seen, but rather show us something different.

I wouldn't go nuts with it. I don't care to see any Ferengi. "The Last Outpost" was explicitly the first contact. On the other hand, it's a new show that is essentially a reboot of the universe. So I'm not worried about the Gorn being a big deal in the show in spite of Kirk not being familiar with them in "Arena." (OTOH, I've read some fan rationalization that because the TOS Gorn is so different than the SNW Gorn, that Kirk saying "the creature calls itself a Gorn" suggests that he knows about SNW Gorn and is surprised that this new creature has the same name.)

--Alex

 

[MakeshiftPython]

A lot of modern writers like to do allegorical episodes about the times we live in. The line of thought for “Remain Klingon” was that it was echoing “Make America Great Again”. I don’t think that was a very successful execution and wouldn’t have used the Klingons that way.

I wouldn’t want to see the military coup in SNW, but I do think it would be interesting to see the seeds of change. Perhaps Pike visits for a trade agreement, but there’s a civil unrest due to the failures of the civilian government, and a vocal group that wants to do no business with Federation, showing the xenophobia that would eventually spread in their culture. It could be played as something of a tragic inevitability.

I always figured the coup didn’t happen until shortly after TUC. That’s when they started conquering worlds, with Bajor in their sights.

 

[Poltargyst]

Of course, Kirk and the entire Enterprise crew couldn't recognize the Gorn despite all the previous encounters in Pike's era.

There's a reason for that but I've been told that it's "tiresome" to bring it up.

 

[Poltargyst]

On the other hand, it's a new show that is essentially a reboot of the universe.

Uh huh.

 

[Shawnster]

So I'm not worried about the Gorn being a big deal in the show in spite of Kirk not being familiar with them in "Arena." (OTOH, I've read some fan rationalization that because the TOS Gorn is so different than the SNW Gorn, that Kirk saying "the creature calls itself a Gorn" suggests that he knows about SNW Gorn and is surprised that this new creature has the same name.)

Sorry for going on this (tired) tangent, and not directing this at Albertese (despite quoting you), but I find the "Kirk simply didn't recognize/know it was a Gorn" simply not reasonable. Kirk was a captain of one of the heaviest armed starships in the Federation at that time. Kirk's mission included the defense of the Federation against outside aggression. It's not reasonable to believe Kirk (or any other senior staff on any starship) is not routinely briefed on races encountered by the Federation, especially races that have been hostile toward the Federation. It's not reasonable that there are no files, intelligence reports, news articles, etc... in the Enterprise's data banks or Federation computer network with details on the Gorn, their appearance, any other species or subspecies in their sphere of influence, maps of their territory and locations where Gorn have been encountered, details on their ship designs and compositions, weapons signatures, warp signatures, language(s), and so forth. As aggressive as we've seen the Gorn depicted in just the first season of SNW, it's only reasonable this type of data would be accessible to Starfleet personnel, especially ones working along the frontier edges of Federation space, as well as routine briefings for every command track officer from at least Lt. or Lt. Cmdr. and above.

 

[Poltargyst]

Sorry for going on this (tired) tangent, and not directing this at Albertese (despite quoting you), but I find the "Kirk simply didn't recognize/know it was a Gorn" simply not reasonable. Kirk was a captain of one of the heaviest armed starships in the Federation at that time. Kirk's mission included the defense of the Federation against outside aggression. It's not reasonable to believe Kirk (or any other senior staff on any starship) is not routinely briefed on races encountered by the Federation, especially races that have been hostile toward the Federation. It's not reasonable that there are no files, intelligence reports, news articles, etc... in the Enterprise's data banks or Federation computer network with details on the Gorn, their appearance, any other species or subspecies in their sphere of influence, maps of their territory and locations where Gorn have been encountered, details on their ship designs and compositions, weapons signatures, warp signatures, language(s), and so forth. As aggressive as we've seen the Gorn depicted in just the first season of SNW, it's only reasonable this type of data would be accessible to Starfleet personnel, especially ones working along the frontier edges of Federation space, as well as routine briefings for every command track officer from at least Lt. or Lt. Cmdr. and above.

Absolutely correct.

 

[drt]

Okay, but what's the point? Just because they could have had contact in Pike's time doesn't mean that they did. Where does it end? Do we just retroactively take all these cultures and say they were always there and encountered in whatever era we want? It's just more stereotypical trekker fan wankery.

The problem is that DS9 moved all of those races considerably closer to the Federation (less than 100 light years) because they needed to have reasonable travel times to get back to Earth with the slow warp speeds as retconned by TNG. So now it's goofier if they don't know about them when Kirk and company were frequently thousands of light years from Earth.