Internal Culture War?

[fireproof78]

Drama has been a part of Trek from the beginning.

That there is drama in Star Trek should come as no surprise.

"Where No Man Has Gone Before" is filled with it.

 

[Tallguy]

It's really tone-deaf to call a show with six LGBTQIA characters "STD".

Either you keep saying that or I've heard it said by others and you're just the latest. You make it sound like STDs are a uniquely LGBTQIA thing. I would think that's as much of a slur as anything else. (Doing a quick Google on world rates it appears to be far more RACIST. Oh dear.)

It's a dumb and inaccurate abbreviation.

They use the genre as means to write what they're actually interested in, dramas.

That sounds like Roddenberry. Or Swift. Or Roddenberry saying he was being like Swift.

Good thing there was nobody getting drunk or chasing girls on pure sci-fi like Forbidden Planet. DRAMA!

 

[Lord Garth]

Either you keep saying that or I've heard it said by others and you're just the latest. You make it sound like STDs are a uniquely LGBTQIA thing. I would think that's as much of a slur as anything else. (Doing a quick Google on world rates it appears to be far more RACIST. Oh dear.)

It's a dumb and inaccurate abbreviation.

This is going somewhere. Patience.

And no, not where you think.

 

[Tallguy]

This is going somewhere. Patience.

And no, not where you think.

I hate waiting.

 

[SalyutBuran]

It's really tone-deaf to call a show with six LGBTQIA characters "STD". Especially when the preferred acronyms are DSC or DIS and no one refers to Voyager as STV or Enterprise as STE. We all know why it's really being called STD. To taunt the show and fans of it. Especially after this many years, when it's clear it's almost exclusively used by people who either dislike or outright hate the series. It makes it even worse when fans of the show have made it clear that they see it as derogatory.

How would you like it if someone called you by something that wasn't your preferred name, and they kept doing it anyway once they knew it bothered you?


I think he's self-projecting what he feels onto the show itself.

A) you gotta look in the mirror if you're at random just gonna try to imply someone is being a homophobe. I'll give you a theory of mind lesson if you call someone a thing like a pedo and they themselves hate pesos, you're never ever gonna fix that relationship. From their perspective you're a person that is out to slander them and engage is baseless reputation spoiling.

B) my favorite memory in high school was taking my 9th grade 6 foot 2 frame and charging the class homophobe as if I were a NFL line backer(he was like 5 foot 2) during a game of basketball. I made him ball and cry like a baby as his head smacked the gym floor. One of my favorite memories, point is don't act as if you know me. And oh my do not compare me to a homophobe. Listen to what I'm saying and exert effort into understanding who I am before telling me who I am. Keeping in mind this was when homopho bia was starting to fade out. The irony of the time was my gym teacher should have had me suspended. But in the good old boys day he defended an obvious hit.

Fyi his favor bullying tactic was making up stories about his targets. The gay kid was masturbating in the back of class. And I'm like no he wasn't he did the Picard monevue with his pants. Kids believed his nonsense. Turned out it was actually one of my friends worst childhood memories.

When I see people randomly accusing people with no evidence I see the homophobe not the person actually confronting the homophobe. Not saying you're that just expand your world view.






C)I don't need to call it std to call it bad. It stands on it's own.

D) 3 letter words are abbreviations are the norm.

E) ignoring all of this comes back to the topic. If modern trek was actually doing coherent messaging not baselessly accusing people of stuff would be a pretty good start for an episode.

 

[SalyutBuran]

It doesn't.

My favorite Trek stories do not need to be in space. Balance of Terror, Errand of Mercy, Where No Man Has Gone Before, The Drumhead, among others.

The human adventure is better, more appealing. Relating to characters what drives me to these stories.

Humanity and space. The setting still helps but if I don't care about the characters all the space exploration will not make up for that deficit.

I'll correct myself not only in space but a space opera format and soft military fiction environment. Balance of terror example of what trek specifically is good at. Notice you mention two romulan episodes fyi.

Edit. There's a difference between having relationships, feelings and emotions to tell a story, and having a story so you can write about relationships feelings and emotions.

My point is they write only in cliches.

Contrast that to HBO's Chernobyl it's about events and things. There's no romance made up drama etc.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll correct myself not only in space but a space opera format and soft military fiction environment. Balance of terror example of what trek specifically is good at. Notice you mention two romulan episodes fyi.

I like Romulans. Sue me.

Balance of Terror is good because of the drama, the tension between Kirk and the Commander, Styles and Spock. It also mimics to a "T" a submarine movie and so demonstrates that Trek is as much about characters and drama as the space opera setting.

And this is by design. Star Trek is a multi-modal platform that can tell multiple types of stories and dramas and comedies within that sandbox. That some don't appeal to you, or to me, is a feature, not a bug.

It doesn't make less Star Trek, it doesn't mean the writers hate the genre, and it doesn't damage the brand.

Contrast that to HBO's Chernobyl it's about events and things. There's no romance made up drama etc.

Never seen it. Don't care to.

Also, Star Trek is all made up so it can make up drama, romance, comedy, interpersonal difficulties. It is not history, nor a period piecd.

 

[HotRod]

Well, this thread has certainly taken a walk away from its original premise...

 

[SalyutBuran]

I like Romulans. Sue me.

Balance of Terror is good because of the drama, the tension between Kirk and the Commander, Styles and Spock. It also mimics to a "T" a submarine movie and so demonstrates that Trek is as much about characters and drama as the space opera setting.

And this is by design. Star Trek is a multi-modal platform that can tell multiple types of stories and dramas and comedies within that sandbox. That some don't appeal to you, or to me, is a feature, not a bug.

It doesn't make less Star Trek, it doesn't mean the writers hate the genre, and it doesn't damage the brand.


Never seen it. Don't care to.

Also, Star Trek is all made up so it can make up drama, romance, comedy, interpersonal difficulties. It is not history, nor a period piecd.

First off I don't think it is at all multi modal nowadays, that's half my gripe orville has plenty of things I'm not interested in, but then it'll counter balance it.

Balance of terror iscariot perfect example of what I mean.

A leading source of tension is that it is in fact the romulans we,are dealing with.

I don't think the nu writers have enough interest in world building to organically create that tension.

That episode is driven by a series of events that are carefully plotted out to create tension. They are reacting to a well written engaging situation.

Get a stopwatch and count the minutes between meaningful events. The drama is in the context of that. There a powerful event almost every 5 minutes.

Modern shows have a powerful event an episode if even, that characters, can actually react to.

 

[fireproof78]

Get a stopwatch and count the minutes between meaningful events. The drama is in the context of that. There a powerful event almost every 5 minutes.

This misses the point and doesn't actually address what I said. In fact it proves the point that the drama of human interactions carries more weight and the interpersonal conflict is the source, not being in space.

Which is my point all along. NuTrek has great characters that I am engaged with, understand and want to see them succeed. That drives me to it.

Characters, feeling emotions, facing challenges, that's Trek to me, and space exists secondary to it.

 

[SalyutBuran]

This misses the point and doesn't actually address what I said. In fact it proves the point that the drama of human interactions carries more weight and the interpersonal conflict is the source, not being in space.

Which is my point all along.

your point is admitting to what I'm saying you value the personal drama over the actual things in the story.

My whole point is for many it's the opposite. Actions events things first and then that touchy feely stuff

 

[fireproof78]

your point is admitting to what I'm saying you value the personal drama over the actual things in the story.

My whole point is for many it's the opposite. Actions events things first and then that touchy feely stuff

I never said otherwise.

I've been told my whole life to avoid "touchy-feely" stuff. To shut myself down and not express. I'm done with that. So, yes, I value people in the story over events.

 

[SalyutBuran]

I never said otherwise.

I've been told my whole life to avoid "touchy-feely" stuff. To shut myself down and not express.

It's a not an either or, it's a question of what makes sense in Star Trek. And if your whole argument is that nu trek should compensate for something that has nothing to do with star trek we have something we can build on. If you freely admit they're awkwardly injecting touchyfeely stuff I can make peace.

I'm done with that. So, yes, I value people in the story over events.

Well I've never personally had that conflict, I watch things where it's appropriate to the content. A show about space ships and laser guns is not a credible place to talk about real human everyday experiences of mundane life.

If the point of contention is that people like myself are bitter because the genre of escapism has been destroyed by people believing we shouldn't have it, I think we're on a profound level of agreement.



If I want drama I'm gonna watch something like this(best movie ever made imo).

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[fireproof78]

And if your whole argument is that nu trek should compensate for something that has nothing to do with star trek we have something we can build on. If you freely admit they're awkwardly injecting touchyfeely stuff I can make peace.

Nope. As I said, it has always been there.

Others may not value it as I but it is not new, nor awkward nor out of place.

If the point of contention is that people like myself are bitter because the genre of escapism has been destroyed by people believing we shouldn't have it,

I do not care about escapism. I don't think it's been destroyed. I think people just have different points of interest that guide them in to shows like Star Trek. The point is to take all those elements and weave and color and create not be bound by one aspect.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Nope. As I said, it has always been there.

A) Usually on episodes that are especially bad

B) Being there and being the dominant thing are radically different things.

Others may not value it as I but it is not new, nor awkward nor out of place.

So in your mind real star trek is inseparable from a soap opera?

I do not care about escapism. I don't think it's been destroyed.

Well that would an incredibly consistent statement when put together.

I think people just have different points of interest that guide them in to shows like Star Trek.

And what I'm saying is that the point of interest are so fundamentally lacking that I don't see it as star trek.

And the thing is you're unique in the sci fi circle for your various positions.

I'm not unique, in the sense that a massive horde of people see an genres of entertainment being hijacked by people wanting more soap operas.

The point is to take all those elements and weave and color and create not be bound by one aspect.

This is a philosophical stance that isn't proven by the execution. The thing is that nu trek isn't good at anything at this point, it's subpar on multiple fronts, trying to do many things and doing most of them poorly. Orville had the android doctor date episode, and it was not something I wanted but it was well done, nutrek doesn't have that.

 

[fireproof78]

A) Usually on episodes that are especially bad

No.

B) Being there and being the dominant thing are radically different things.

And no. If an element exists in Star Trek it can emphasized or deemphasized as the writers and producers dictate.

So in your mind real star trek is inseparable from a soap opera?

At times, yes.

And what I'm saying is that the point of interest are so fundamentally lacking that I don't see it as star trek.

The thing is that nu trek isn't good at anything at this point, it's subpar on multiple fronts, trying to do many things and doing most of them poorly.

Doing it poorly is
A) subjective
and
B) does not make it less Star Trek. It is Star Trek, as is all the shows that I despise like TNG or ENT. I don't dictate Star Trek or how it exists. I only engage with it. Or not, if it doesn't interest me.

If some thing isn't working for me, I walk away from it, Star Trek or no Star Trek.

 

[nightwind1]

Gene milked at the time existing fans, by giving them more of what they wanted, so much more they could 25 additional seasons in one continuous run.






Lets start with, if Orville actually feels like Star Trek, and nu stuff doesn't.

Orville feels like a cheap knockoff of Trek, with dick jokes tossed in. It's fun as a knockoff, but it ain't Trek.

 

[SalyutBuran]

No.

And no. If an element exists in Star Trek it can emphasized or deemphasized as the writers and producers dictate.

Doing it poorly is
A) subjective
and
B) does not make it less Star Trek. It is Star Trek, as is all the shows that I despise like TNG or ENT. I don't dictate Star Trek or how it exists. I only engage with it. Or not, if it doesn't interest me.

If some thing isn't working for me, I walk away from it, Star Trek or no Star Trek.

a) Yeah I'm way too invested for that. I literally watched 5-6 episodes of DS9 last night, and am gonna supplement that with some B5 with my wife in a few minutes. Before bed I'll be scribbling out my story ideas etc. It's a round the clock thing for me. I'm autistic I can't walk away from a special interest, it's just not that type of thing.

b) I'm not on the nutrek board instant pass.

c) always hope it's gonna get better, I watch enough new trek to see those delightful moments. I've been on an any day now the studio is gonna see the monies they are losing and course correct. I check out of discovery after the first season. Didn't even look at picard, and then loved season 3. I like the initial parts of SNW but feel the soap box coming out. I knew CBS was running full force into a brick wall the moment it was announced that the targeted platform was gonna be CBS. It's a fundamental disconnect between the people who make the brand valuable and the people they're targeting. Point is I pay attention because eventually you'd think things would snap back to a targeted audience. Like clearly they know they're off course, and are actively trying to get back on track, it's just they're always chasing their last mistake instead of realizing that it's a top down problem.

d) It's the back and fourth that upsets me, like if they could just get out of their way and start figuring out how to make money.

Regardless of what Orville is, it knows it audience and vice versa. Endor knew what it was going for and did it well, a thought out sci fi similar to b5. The expanse knew its audience and so did for all mankind.

Problem is the perpetual jerk around, and it gets acerbated by people who are denying the reality "obviously this is something that isn't appealing to a lot of people".

Orville feels like a cheap knockoff of Trek, with dick jokes tossed in. It's fun as a knockoff, but it ain't Trek.

Not sure if you've watched past the first season much, but the joke part is overstated, more on par with a Ferengi farce episode at worst.

It's on the spectrum of trek.

It's certainly not the more serious trek I want, but it does enough things well that it deserves respect.

Not to mention actually being capable of talking about ideas/exploring etc in a way that nu trek can't.

Bortis is the gay 2nd in command, and it's done in a way that is entirely appropriate to exploring ideas//new concepts of things that weren't focused on in the 90s etc Like it ain't remotely interesting that he's gay in the stand alone sense, it's how they take character trait and go somewhere with it.

 

[fireproof78]

Problem is the perpetual jerk around, and it gets acerbated by people who are denying the reality "obviously this is something that isn't appealing to a lot of people".

Why should I care about popular appeal?

Yeah I'm way too invested for that. I literally watched 5-6 episodes of DS9 last night, and am gonna supplement that with some B5 with my wife in a few minutes. Before bed I'll be scribbling out my story ideas etc. It's a round the clock thing for me. I'm autistic I can't walk away from a special interest, it's just not that type of thing.

Investment doesn't mean sticking around. I gave up on TNG, came back for DS9, gave up on VOY and Enterprise, came back in 09. Enjoyed a lot of RPGS, fan fiction, fan art, and rewatching TOS and ST 09 when I grew tires of Picard or SNW.

There is always something. If Orville is that something for you go for it. It isn't Trek, but Stargate was that for me.

It's ok to not like a Star Trek.

 

[1001001]

Holy God…

The horse is dead. Let’s stop beating it.

Closing temporarily while I consult with other staff to see if there’s any reason at all to let this shit show continue.