Poll The troubles with Saavik

[Damian]

I noted before I've read the novels and where there's no on screen contradiction I'm happy to consider novel story points as part of the continuity.

The novels have her as a half-Romulan. I believe that goes back to an initial outline of the character when she was created. It's never been stated on screen one way or another, and it does at least explain some of how she was portrayed in TWOK. I always thought that might make some sense. I always went with the idea that she was half-Romulan.

Her being pregnant in TVH after TSFS was another story idea they flirted with but they decided to dismiss it. And that was something the novels did not pick up on, and since it was never picked up on screen I never thought of her as pregnant with Spock's child.

Later novels (particularly the Vulcan's Soul trilogy) did have Spock and Saavik getting married at some point years later, though they were childless. They continued their respective careers, Spock as a diplomat and Saavik as a captain. Other novels during the post-Nemesis years didn't really touch on that, even when Spock appeared. They didn't contradict it, but they didn't mention their marriage either. Other parts of that trilogy were mentioned so it is considered part of the relaunches.

It seems I'm in the minority but I was actually always glad Saavik wasn't included as a traitor in TUC. I have a hard time believing Saavik would betray her former shipmates like that, and esp. Spock. It just never 'felt' right to me so I was glad it was a different character. Not to mention I wasn't too thrilled with the idea of yet another actress playing Saavik. I was always amused that Roddenberry was adamant Saavik wouldn't betray the Federation when she was a character created by Meyer, who he didn't really get along with the best. In a way I always thought Meyer should be a bit flattered that Roddenberry thought so much of a character Meyer created that he couldn't believe she'd betray her oath.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps the fact that we don't want to believe Saavik would betray Spock et al....but could intellectually understand why it might happen...is why it could have been so devastatingly effective if it had happened?

Heck, that could have overshadowed most of the rest of the film.

 

[Damian]

Perhaps the fact that we don't want to believe Saavik would betray Spock et al....but could intellectually understand why it might happen...is why it could have been so devastatingly effective if it had happened?

Heck, that could have overshadowed most of the rest of the film.

Maybe another reason it was just as well they didn't, that it would have overshadowed much of the film. The main plot of the film was about the beginnings of peace between the Federation and Klingon Empire's. The betrayals were important, but they weren't the only important aspects of the plot. And much of it was Kirk's feelings about the Klingons. Some of that may have been lost if the focus shifted to Saavik and her betrayal.

 

[DonIago]

Yeah, I wasn't saying it would necessarily be a good idea, viewed through that lens.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I believe that goes back to an initial outline of the character when she was created. It's never been stated on screen one way or another, and it does at least explain some of how she was portrayed in TWOK.

It was actually filmed. The footage was in the ST II ShoWest "presentation trailer" and was seen by many attendees of that National Association of Theatre Owners (NATO) convention. But yes, not "canon" because the scene was dropped from the final edit and never restored to any re-releases of the movie.

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Not to mention I wasn't too thrilled with the idea of yet another actress playing Saavik.

Same with Kim Cattrall herself. She insisted she would only play a new character and helped to name her (suggesting "Eris") and designed her severe hairstyle and even the headband.

 

[FederationHistorian]

To pick a nit, Saavik was a lieutenant in TWOK. She was just back at the academy going through the Command School.

Technically, while she wore a lieutenant junior grade rank during the Kobayashi Maru simulation, she was officially a cadet.

Not if Saavik had come clean about being half-Romulan when she applied to the Academy. Assuming she was indeed honest about it, there would have been no complications.

Tarses wasn't in trouble because he was part Romulan, it was because he LIED about it.

Technically, both were an issue.

Having incredulously read the last several posts in this thread involving the minor character Simon Tarses, I spent some time at Memory Alpha and with a spreadsheet and now I come with a theory:

Spock (0.5 Human +0.5 Vulcan) and Saavik (0.5 Vulcan + 0.5 Romulan)'s kid (SSK for short) would have to be 0.25 Human +0.5 Vulcan +0.25 Romulan and his or her conception at Genesis happened in 2285, so he or she more probably was born in 2286.

PonFarr occurs every 7 years of a Vulcan's adult life, and Spock (born 2230) had his first at stardate 3372.7 (2267) at the age of 37.

So if SSK (b. 2286) had his first PF at 37 too (2323), his second would have to be at 44 y.o. in 2330 and the third at 51 y.o. in 2237.

(maybe 2238, because PF period isn't precisely 7.0 Earth years. Or because technobabble)

If SSK paired with a Human, their offspring would be
0.625Human+0.25Vulcan+0.125Romulan=0.625Human+0.375Vulcanoid (very close to 3/4)

Simon Tarses was 28 years old (the actor's age) and on the E-D in 2367 (the episode in which he appears) and thus born in 2339.

I think it's clear.


Simon Tarses is Spock's grandson.

My new headcanon. Thanks!

 

[Jedi Marso]

Technically, while she wore a lieutenant junior grade rank during the Kobayashi Maru simulation, she was officially a cadet.

In your head canon, maybe. She was addressed as 'lieutenant' all throughout that movie and the next one. Spock addresses her as lieutenant in the Vulcan language. She was even back to wearing the white turtleneck in TSFS as she was no longer undergoing command training.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Technically, both were an issue.

There's no evidence that simply having a Romulan ancestor would keep Tarses out of Starfleet. If he thought it would, that's on him. He's the one who lied.

Starfleet might go easy on Tarses if one of his parents was, for example, the product of a rape of a human prisoner. He'd have legitimate reasons for not wanting that to go public. And I find it likely that this is exactly how it went down; when Tarses was born, the Romulans HAD no official contact with the Federation (so it's not like Tarses could have been descended from, say, a Romulan ambassador, since at that time, there were none). If, OTOH, Tarses' grandmother was taken prisoner by Romulans and assaulted...well, that's definitely in their wheelhouse.

But merely being part-Romulan? No. That wouldn't be an issue. Wasn't a problem for Saavik, was it?

 

[DonIago]

Does the episode state why he lied in the first place?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Does the episode state why he lied in the first place?

No.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Wasn't a problem for Saavik, was it?

She was sponsored into Starfleet Academy by Spock himself. Who, according to the (not canon) novelization, had rescued her as a child from the abandoned Romulan prison planet, Hellguard.

 

[Mojochi]

Not if Saavik had come clean about being half-Romulan when she applied to the Academy. Assuming she was indeed honest about it, there would have been no complications.

Tarses wasn't in trouble because he was part Romulan, it was because he LIED about it.

Technically, I don't really disagree, but to be fair, those D-bags in The Drumhead we're outing him pretty hard over the Romulan part too, improper though they were being.

I mean if Starfleet is supposed to be so progressive, why would it matter what he told people his heritage was anyhow, or that he'd not want to divulge it? It's got nothing to do with service... Except precarious relations with those Romulans in question. Ain't nobody's bizniss IMHO.

If I lie about something you shouldn't necessarily be forcing me to divulge, that shit's kind of on you too.

As for Saavik, I kind of like the idea of half-Rommie. It reconciles the varied actress performances. That when Spock first met her, she was more emotional, but as time went on, he mentored her, & maybe instructed her in Kolinarh, her behavior changed to reflect it. So her developmental arc somewhat mirrors Spock's

Are we thinking a potential pregnancy because of her being present during the Genesis planet development stuff? So he was Pon Farring, & she had to give it up to get him through it? I don't know if I buy us getting all the way to a baby because of that, even if we assume it did happen, which I'm not sure I do.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Technically, I don't really disagree, but to be fair, those D-bags in The Drumhead we're outing him pretty hard over the Romulan part too, improper though they were being.

Admiral Satie is hardly representative of the Federation in this regard. You can't take anything she says as official policy by any means. She is obviously a paranoid sociopath, but the rest of Starfleet isn't like that. Her own FATHER (a respected judge) would probably have been horrified at her actions. You'll notice how Admiral Henry walked out on her after her last outburst...

Hell, I doubt even Section 31 would have cared about Tarses being part Romulan. And if THEY'RE willing to let something slide...

 

[Kor]

Yeah, Satie was unhinged, and her aide Sabin Genestra was no better. While these prejudiced individuals clearly exist, it would be pretty rotten and hypocritical if Starfleet had an official written policy barring people from entry because of their race/species or because they happened to have an ancestor who was a citizen/subject of a hostile political power. Being a kid of mixed race, I recognized the treatment of Simon Tarses as pure, unadulterated racism, and it was obvious that not everyone with authority in the Federation lives up to its vaunted "evolved sensibilities."

Kor

 

[Qonundrum]

She's half-Romulan, but the revelation would have come in a later movie. III even.

She's not preggers, as plot devices go that's too obvious, too easy, and too cliche.

She looks more like Kirstie Alley and it's a shame she wasn't available. Then again, this would lead to VI bordering small universe syndrome. Especially after Sybok, it's nice to see a species that isn't all the same under the surface, as with most societies, and they weren't overdone.

 

[Pauln6]

I noted before I've read the novels and where there's no on screen contradiction I'm happy to consider novel story points as part of the continuity.

The novels have her as a half-Romulan. I believe that goes back to an initial outline of the character when she was created. It's never been stated on screen one way or another, and it does at least explain some of how she was portrayed in TWOK. I always thought that might make some sense. I always went with the idea that she was half-Romulan.

Her being pregnant in TVH after TSFS was another story idea they flirted with but they decided to dismiss it. And that was something the novels did not pick up on, and since it was never picked up on screen I never thought of her as pregnant with Spock's child.

Later novels (particularly the Vulcan's Soul trilogy) did have Spock and Saavik getting married at some point years later, though they were childless. They continued their respective careers, Spock as a diplomat and Saavik as a captain. Other novels during the post-Nemesis years didn't really touch on that, even when Spock appeared. They didn't contradict it, but they didn't mention their marriage either. Other parts of that trilogy were mentioned so it is considered part of the relaunches.

It seems I'm in the minority but I was actually always glad Saavik wasn't included as a traitor in TUC. I have a hard time believing Saavik would betray her former shipmates like that, and esp. Spock. It just never 'felt' right to me so I was glad it was a different character. Not to mention I wasn't too thrilled with the idea of yet another actress playing Saavik. I was always amused that Roddenberry was adamant Saavik wouldn't betray the Federation when she was a character created by Meyer, who he didn't really get along with the best. In a way I always thought Meyer should be a bit flattered that Roddenberry thought so much of a character Meyer created that he couldn't believe she'd betray her oath.

Still the script might not have been identical if Saavik had featured. She could have been given a less murderous and more redemptive arc. She may have been sucked in over her head and working furiously to mitigate the damage. She may have been prepared to sacrifice Kirk and McCoy because she already has a plan to save them. They could have appealed to her divided loyalties instead of the forced mind meld etc.

 

[Jedi Marso]

In my fan fic re-write of ST VI I made Saavik the first officer of Excelsior under Captain Sulu, where they had a slightly expanded role in the narrative. It was important because Saavik was fully cleared for Genesis, and that was a plot point, as the explosion of Praxis was the test of a protomatter bomb based on stolen Genesis data. I renamed Valeris T'Val in keeping with more traditional Vulcan naming conventions, but she remained the traitor.

I've always had a soft spot for Saavik and wanted to see more of her.

 

[Chaos Descending]

In my fan fic re-write of ST VI I made Saavik the first officer of Excelsior under Captain Sulu, where they had a slightly expanded role in the narrative. It was important because Saavik was fully cleared for Genesis, and that was a plot point, as the explosion of Praxis was the test of a protomatter bomb based on stolen Genesis data. I renamed Valeris T'Val in keeping with more traditional Vulcan naming conventions, but she remained the traitor.

I've always had a soft spot for Saavik and wanted to see more of her.

I'd love to read that! I enjoyed the other fanfic rewrites you've shared over the years.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I'd love to read that! I enjoyed the other fanfic rewrites you've shared over the years.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/star-trek-vi-tuc-redeux-with-john-m-ford-klingons-v2-0.311884/

 

[Chaos Descending]

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/star-trek-vi-tuc-redeux-with-john-m-ford-klingons-v2-0.311884/

Awesome. Thanks!