Internal Culture War?

[fireproof78]

Are people saying it should have been Geordi not get respect from the other Starfeet officer because he didn't feel black people make good captains?

Sure, why not?

If so how does that even make sense in the context of Trek?

Because bigotry is not completely gone. There are still biases, opinions, stereotypes, and negative opinions. Yes, it's allegorized by aliens, but that doesn't make it less Star Trek if it goes towards humans.

Again, sometimes it's the anvil that needs to be dropped.

The world of Star Trek is completely different than our present day

Yes, and TOS' and other series power was not in saying "our humanity is better" but saying "everyday we are able to make choices that make our world better, be it exploring, cooperation, diplomacy or fighting when necessary." The way you make it work is by saying how you got there, not why you're so superior.

 

[Jayson1]

Sure, why not?


Because bigotry is not completely gone. There are still biases, opinions, stereotypes, and negative opinions. Yes, it's allegorized by aliens, but that doesn't make it less Star Trek if it goes towards humans.

Again, sometimes it's the anvil that needs to be dropped.


Yes, and TOS' and other series power was not in saying "our humanity is better" but saying "everyday we are able to make choices that make our world better, be it exploring, cooperation, diplomacy or fighting when necessary." The way you make it work is by saying how you got there, not why you're so superior.

I disagree. TOS was showing us a better world. More like a idealized version of what 60's people thought a better world would look like. They weren't doing the paradise stuff though. That came with TNG. As for being allegorized by aliens I would argue that is my point. It's still allegory. Only difference is the allegory would be over stuff happening today as opposed to the 60's or 90's etc or the world after 9/11 on Enterprise. None if though feels like stories though you could see on Law and Order CIS.

 

[Kor]

Sure, why not?


Because bigotry is not completely gone. There are still biases, opinions, stereotypes, and negative opinions. Yes, it's allegorized by aliens, but that doesn't make it less Star Trek if it goes towards humans.

Again, sometimes it's the anvil that needs to be dropped.


Yes, and TOS' and other series power was not in saying "our humanity is better" but saying "everyday we are able to make choices that make our world better, be it exploring, cooperation, diplomacy or fighting when necessary." The way you make it work is by saying how you got there, not why you're so superior.

Agreed. A case in point is Kirk's speech in A Taste of Armageddon:

... It's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. ...

So much more meaningful than Picard pompously pontificating about having "a more evolved sensibility."

Kor

 

[Jayson1]

Their is nothing wrong with what TNG did. It worked for that show and it provided a nice feel good fantasy which I think has value. It's something I do think is hard to replicate. Once in awhile a show comes along and does it like Ted Lasso but not often.

 

[Sci]

Sometimes us Trekkies live up to this Onion skit from 2009.

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[fireproof78]

I disagree. TOS was showing us a better world. More like a idealized version of what 60's people thought a better world would look like. They weren't doing the paradise stuff though. That came with TNG. As for being allegorized by aliens I would argue that is my point. It's still allegory. Only difference is the allegory would be over stuff happening today as opposed to the 60's or 90's etc or the world after 9/11 on Enterprise. None if though feels like stories though you could see on Law and Order CIS.

I disagree. I see some of the "better future" and "stupidity of racism" better told in a show like MASH than some of TNG's speechifying.

Their is nothing wrong with what TNG did. It worked for that show and it provided a nice feel good fantasy which I think has value. It's something I do think is hard to replicate. Once in awhile a show comes along and does it like Ted Lasso but not often.

I guess the appeal of the fantasy depends on one's point of view.

Agreed. A case in point is Kirk's speech in A Taste of Armageddon:


So much more meaningful than Picard pompously pontificating about having "a more evolved sensibility."

Kor

Exactly.

 

[Farscape One]

Allegory and bluntly telling the message both have their merits and uses. Some shows do it better with allegory, and vice versa.

I think it all comes down to the viewer and what subjects they feel need to be an allegory and which ones need the bluntness.

I'll use TNG's "The Outcast" as an example. I have seen it stated often around here that it failed in the message. I disagree, at least for myself. It was an allegory for homosexuality, which was something I never really thought about before it aired. (I was 12 when it first aired.) It was telling a story that not only entertained me, but made me think about what a group of people are going through at the time. I can't call an episode a 'failure' if the message they were trying to convey made me think about something I had never even considered before.

Isn't that the point of science fiction, to help us consider those things we never thought of before, whether it's bluntly or by using an allegory?

 

[Jayson1]

I disagree. I see some of the "better future" and "stupidity of racism" better told in a show like MASH than some of TNG's speechifying.


I guess the appeal of the fantasy depends on one's point of view.


Exactly.

I think the difference is TNG showcases a universe I think people would want to live in. No racism or hatred. People for the most part get along with each. You don't have to worry about shelter or food or bill or not being able to get health care and for fun you can go play on a holodeck. It's basically heaven on earth. For the sake of drama the writers of course then have to find ways of chipping away at that and often can with aliens or humans who are exception to the rule and with DS9 they showed us that Heaven isn't quite as nice as you might think but in regards to TNG I still think that fantasy dream is one if's main appeals.

What works for TNG though is something that would for the most part be bad for most tv shows so TNG IMO is one of those rare shows that you simply can never duplicate. It is a very unique show in that way. I know personally that positive future is what first made me a Trek fan back when I was a teenager and not feeling good about myself. All the characters were nice people and they cared about bigger than life issues and it was a very inviting setting. I think lots of people liked the show for those reasons. It appealed to your hope instead of your cynicism. Lots of shows don't do that. Lots of those shows are also brilliant and great but they are also not TNG.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm rather sad to see that there's so much division. Sadly it doesn't seem to be enough to just say one likes Trek and have it be the end of it. Now it seems there are sides. I'm just a Trek fan.

As to the writing, I'll say this. I prefer allegories. For decades, even generations, it meant that writers had to get creative about how to broach cultural issues. We see this dating back to Jules Verne or even Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and science fiction was the perfect vehicle to explore different kinds of issues. It led to writers being creative and subtle. In Trek, it also led to some of the most memorable episodes, ie TOS's Let That Be Your Last Battlefield, and TNG's Inner Light. Both enduring classics of their particular era. The one thing I've noticed about modern Trek is that the allegories seem to have largely disappeared, the writing more blunt. In certain contexts, this can have its place, but I think it's led to less creativity in the way stories are written in general.

Allegory regarding LGBTQI+ is kinda dumb because it's our real life now and also allegory was done in a time when those subjects couldn't be aired publicly. It was a workaround. Nowadays LGBTQI+ is represented on most TV shows. It would be stupid and backwards for Trek to closet it's gays again.

Not to mention offensive.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Allegory regarding LGBTQI+ is kinda dumb because it's our real life now and also allegory was done in a time when those subjects couldn't be aired publicly. It was a workaround. Nowadays LGBTQI+ is represented on most TV shows. It would be stupid and backwards for Trek to closet it's gays again.

Not to mention offensive.

Of course, and I fully agree. Our society has gone way past that, or so I would hope. It should be up to the writers to figure out when it is right to use allegory and not. Certain things should be dealt head-on. But I still think allegories can be used as a storytelling tool to help build up overall narratives. They just don't seem to be used much in modern sci-fi anymore.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Of course, and I fully agree. Our society has gone way past that, or so I would hope. It should be up to the writers to figure out when it is right to use allegory and not. Certain things should be dealt head-on. But I still think allegories can be used as a storytelling tool to help build up overall narratives. They just don't seem to be used much in modern sci-fi anymore.

I think that's because the world has become far more accepting than it was, TV networks (well, streaming now) is far less restrictive on the stories it can tell. It's a good thing, really.

Like if seeing ICE officers beat up Rios, or a trans character in love with an NB makes people uncomfortable to watch, perhaps they should ask themselves why instead of just raging against it.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the difference is TNG showcases a universe I think people would want to live in. No racism or hatred. People for the most part get along with each. You don't have to worry about shelter or food or bill or not being able to get health care and for fun you can go play on a holodeck. It's basically heaven on earth. For the sake of drama the writers of course then have to find ways of chipping away at that and often can with aliens or humans who are exception to the rule and with DS9 they showed us that Heaven isn't quite as nice as you might think but in regards to TNG I still think that fantasy dream is one if's main appeals.

What works for TNG though is something that would for the most part be bad for most tv shows so TNG IMO is one of those rare shows that you simply can never duplicate. It is a very unique show in that way. I know personally that positive future is what first made me a Trek fan back when I was a teenager and not feeling good about myself. All the characters were nice people and they cared about bigger than life issues and it was a very inviting setting. I think lots of people liked the show for those reasons. It appealed to your hope instead of your cynicism. Lots of shows don't do that. Lots of those shows are also brilliant and great but they are also not TNG.

Again, I don't disagree, nor do I think modern Trek should shy away from allegory. I just do not agree that if modern Trek did more allegory it would be less divisive, which is how this topic came up.

As for TNG and cynicism, I think it was cynical looking backwards at history. It looked down on us, basically. It treated modern humans as garbage at any chance it could. So, it did not leave me feeling very good about myself, it was not inviting and it was not a future I wanted to be a part of.

Interesting how our influences impact upon our view. TNG left me more cynical than optimistic, while TOS and Stargate had me more optimistic.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I think that's because the world has become far more accepting than it was, TV networks (well, streaming now) is far less restrictive on the stories it can tell. It's a good thing, really.

True enough. But there are still so many other different kinds of stories where allegories would make sense, and in doing so, would expand on the world that is being portrayed. It's all in how it's used in storytelling.

 

[The Wormhole]

Sometimes us Trekkies live up to this Onion skit from 2009.

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I like the bit around the 1:20 part of that video where they show a Star Trek internet forum. Which totally isn't similar to any that might actually exist.

 

[F. King Daniel]

True enough. But there are still so many other different kinds of stories where allegories would make sense, and in doing so, would expand on the world that is being portrayed. It's all in how it's used in storytelling.

What kinds of stories?

 

[UssGlenn]

Let that Be Your Last Battlefield is about as subtle as a train wreck when it comes to its allegory.

I'll defend "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield." Maybe it's because I saw it as a child, but it really made clear how stupid racism and xenophobia is to me as a child.

You watch the episode and hear this idiot say how the other guy is obviously awful because he's black on the wrong side, realize how stupid that is, and then as a kid you realize how stupid and arbitrary every other distinction to make some person or group of persons an "other" is too when you get down to it. It's just bigotry with some extra steps of sophistry.

The episode is not subtle, but some anvils need to be dropped.

The allegory is obvious but I thought the message about the differences they are fighting about being so subtle that outsiders didn't even notice them, was well done.

Allegory regarding LGBTQI+ is kinda dumb because it's our real life now and also allegory was done in a time when those subjects couldn't be aired publicly. It was a workaround. Nowadays LGBTQI+ is represented on most TV shows. It would be stupid and backwards for Trek to closet it's gays again.

Not to mention offensive.

Like if seeing ICE officers beat up Rios, or a trans character in love with an NB makes people uncomfortable to watch, perhaps they should ask themselves why instead of just raging against it.

Obviously Discovery didn't closet anyone, but you'll also notice the gay, trans, and NB characters didn't face any prejudice either. Why? Because it doesn't make any sense in the setting. So if you want to do a story about LGBT discrimination you've got to do something else. The easy answer is Planet of the week has some LGBT inhabitants, and they face discrimination. But then you are just back to the standard TNG "Humans now know better" trope. And what is even the point of doing an alien LGBT discrimination story on Trek if the exact same story could be done on a regular 21st century TV show without forehead makeup? There is no point in doing it unless you can frame the issue in a fresh way and try to make someone who doesn't already agree with you think about it in a new way.

Think about some of the other obvious allegorical stories and see if they are still Trek, or even entertaining if you remove the sci-fi-ness. Does "The Hunted" work if Danar just has PTSD and not super soldier skills?

 

[fireproof78]

Does "The Hunted" work if Danar just has PTSD and not super soldier skills?

Damn straight it does. It works very well, and NCIS did a similar storyline.

The allegory is obvious but I thought the message about the differences they are fighting about being so subtle that outsiders didn't even notice them, was well done.

I mean, you can make it work, of course. I just don't think it makes it a classic in that sense. Or that it is less divisive because of its allegorical nature.

 

[Phily B]

If you're gonna do allegory but not make the episode interesting or entertaining, then its a miss. Picard S2 was a complete miss even with some interesting ideas. Sometimes issues are too complicated to do an effective episode about without extending to a whole season, so it ends up very muddled or with a mixed message. I thought that about the SNW episode 2 as well, it was a swing and a miss on that front - I also felt it was a bit too try hard and patting itself on the back a bit too much.

 

[UssGlenn]

Take the Bajorans and Cardassians, They aren't direct copies of any Earth groups, but there's no way to do a story directly about any of the Earth groups they resemble in Star Trek without time travel. And then you definitely aren't getting the seasons long story like we did on DS9.

 

[fireproof78]

It can be done, and it can be done well, but it takes time, effort and planning.

Outer Limits and Twilight Zone would do this all the time. Trek can too, if it's willing. But, it plays it closer to safe to ensure that people keep tuning in.