DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Christopher]

I think this is being a bit specious, I don't think there's any doubt as to what the original statement meant.

I know what the intent of the statement was, and I find the underlying assumptions irritating, hence my reply. Too many fans abuse the largely unimportant technical term "canon" as a bludgeon to denigrate things that don't fit their preconceptions. It's especially hypocritical to use it when talking about a series that's an adaptation to begin with, one of many, many mutually incompatible adaptations of DC Comics over the decades. Even the canonical comics have so many different continuities within them that it's risible to claim continuity has any relevance to the worth of a DC story.

 

[Set Harth]

I'm pretty sure DC announcing that none of their next batch of movies were canon because everything was about to be reset did them a lot more damage than the Snyder Cut ever did.

DC gonna DC.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Leaving everything else aside, viewers flocked to The Batman and Joker, which were unrelated to each other and to the other DC films, so I think that the issue of how films are connected to other films isn’t a big priority for most cinema goers.

 

[Starscream2112]

They should just complete the Snider verse stories animated films. I am sure the actors would be up for it once the strike is over.

 

[The Realist]

The value of a movie is the movie itself, not just what it sets up in the future.

This.

Leaving everything else aside, viewers flocked to The Batman and Joker, which were unrelated to each other and to the other DC films, so I think that the issue of how films are connected to other films isn’t a big priority for most cinema goers.

Also this.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Leaving everything else aside, viewers flocked to The Batman and Joker, which were unrelated to each other and to the other DC films, so I think that the issue of how films are connected to other films isn’t a big priority for most cinema goers.

I think the issue is more complicated than the simple yes/no that a lot of people seem to want it to be.

You give two examples that clearly prove people are willing to show up for an individual movie. I absolutely agree with them. However, those two examples also have a lot of obvious advantages that the average DC film hasn't had. Batman and Joker are wildly popular characters. Joker had Joaquin Phoenix giving an oscar worthy performance and the bizarre novelty factor of Martin Scorsese directing a superhero movie. Etc, etc.

And if we look at the history of the MCU, I find it highly dubious to seriously suggest that the interconnectedness didn't clearly boost the results of movies like Dr. Strange, Ant-man, Ant-man and the Wasp, etc. That kind of interconnectedness that makes people excited is not the end all and be all, but it very clearly is a significant advantage for a movie to have.

The issue is that the WB flat-out surrendered that potential advantage by killing the whole 'what will happen next?' factor for a whole series of movies that were already struggling in terms of gaining any kind of clear advantage in the first place. None of them had world class lead actors, top-shelf directors, or perennially proven beloved characters to work with. The best they had to offer from a marketing standpoint, outside of the interconnectedness, was: the Rock being the Rock; Zachary Levi being Zachary Levi (and Helen Mirren very clearly not being Helen Mirren, performance wise); a nostalgia bait return for Michael Keaton (by far the less famous legacy Batman) in a movie not actually about Batman; the promise of paying cinema prices for a movie with a streaming budget; and the hope that Aquaman 2 will somehow be able to be just as popular as the last one, despite big dumb fun franchises rarely actually gaining popularity over time.

These movies were always going to be hard to sell. The interconnectedness was basically their last best, hope at selling them anyway.

And yes, if the stories had been absolutely rock-solid, peak of the genre, they probably could have overcome all that anyway, through wom and legs. (Maybe BB and AQ2 can still, we'll see.) But they weren't that. And they were absolutely embarassing failures, even in comparison to other films that didn't have absolutely rock-solid, peak of the genre stories themselves.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Positive word of mouth can't be beat.
If people aren't liking what they're seeing, they're not going to tell their friends and family "You HAVE to see this!".
In fact, they'll say to skip it and wait for streaming if at all.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I think the issue is more complicated than the simple yes/no that a lot of people seem to want it to be.

You give two examples that clearly prove people are willing to show up for an individual movie. I absolutely agree with them. However, those two examples also have a lot of obvious advantages that the average DC film hasn't had. Batman and Joker are wildly popular characters. Joker had Joaquin Phoenix giving an oscar worthy performance and the bizarre novelty factor of Martin Scorsese directing a superhero movie. Etc, etc.

And if we look at the history of the MCU, I find it highly dubious to seriously suggest that the interconnectedness didn't clearly boost the results of movies like Dr. Strange, Ant-man, Ant-man and the Wasp, etc. That kind of interconnectedness that makes people excited is not the end all and be all, but it very clearly is a significant advantage for a movie to have.

The issue is that the WB flat-out surrendered that potential advantage by killing the whole 'what will happen next?' factor for a whole series of movies that were already struggling in terms of gaining any kind of clear advantage in the first place. None of them had world class lead actors, top-shelf directors, or perennially proven beloved characters to work with. The best they had to offer from a marketing standpoint, outside of the interconnectedness, was: the Rock being the Rock; Zachary Levi being Zachary Levi (and Helen Mirren very clearly not being Helen Mirren, performance wise); a nostalgia bait return for Michael Keaton (by far the less famous legacy Batman) in a movie not actually about Batman; the promise of paying cinema prices for a movie with a streaming budget; and the hope that Aquaman 2 will somehow be able to be just as popular as the last one, despite big dumb fun franchises rarely actually gaining popularity over time.

These movies were always going to be hard to sell. The interconnectedness was basically their last best, hope at selling them anyway.

And yes, if the stories had been absolutely rock-solid, peak of the genre, they probably could have overcome all that anyway, through wom and legs. (Maybe BB and AQ2 can still, we'll see.) But they weren't that. And they were absolutely embarassing failures, even in comparison to other films that didn't have absolutely rock-solid, peak of the genre stories themselves.

Nothing is ever as simple as one or other factor, I agree with that. But I think the various other factors you mention were much more significant in the box office performances of Flash & Shazam 2 than the fact of that cinematic universe being wrapped up.

I think the comment about word of mouth is bang on the money.

FWIW, Scorsese had no involvement with Joker, he was initially involved in a production capacity but was never down to direct it (it was always Todd Philips’ baby). By the time the film went into production, he’d left the project entirely.

 

[Set Harth]

Joker had Joaquin Phoenix giving an oscar worthy performance and the bizarre novelty factor of Martin Scorsese directing a superhero movie.

You mean this guy?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm pretty sure DC announcing that none of their next batch of movies were canon because everything was about to be reset did them a lot more damage than the Snyder Cut ever did.

Agreed. Film series have conditioned audiences to care about a series' relation from one film to another for generations, whether the canonical entry had a tight or thin connection to previous installments--that is the nature of a deliberately constructed series with linked stories--not intended to be random one-offs, which would be a lazy-minded excuse. For the millions of fans who were invested in the DCEU, the announcement that Shazam's sequel, The Flash, Blue Beetle and Aquaman 2 would be the end of the DCEU has turned off some fans who feel a series which was originally intended to continue was unceremoniously dumped, thus the stories of the final quartet of films (especially The Flash and the cuts to A2) lose whatever impact they were meant to have going forward with once-planned films.

The Snyder Cut did no damage, but was one of the few examples when a studio actually listened / responded to audience desires, instead of settling on the disaster of their own making--the Whedon JL movie.

 

[Noname Given]

don't think it was a big money loser...but didn't they spend like $40 million to finish it (and filming stuff like some Cyborg scenes, which were clearly made in a Covid-safe enviorment.

I don't think it was a huge money loser -- but also did NOT bring in hundreds of thousands of subscriptions... i think they might have broke even...something "new" to watch during the end o the Covid lockdown.

i think it might have been more worth it than Mulan or Wonder WOman 1984

It cost $70 million to finish the cut. As to whether they consider themselves to have made that money back via gained (at the time) HBO/MAX subscribers, or consider it "throwing good money after bad..."
https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/hbo-...-justice-league-flop-why-thats-brilliant.html

https://movieweb.com/the-snyder-cut-new-report-claims-fan-campaign-heavily-bolstered-bots/

 

[Christopher]

It cost $70 to finish the cut.

There's either one word or six digits missing there...

 

[Tosk]

Joker had Joaquin Phoenix giving an oscar worthy performance and the bizarre novelty factor of Martin Scorsese directing a superhero movie.

Set Harth already pointed this out with a joke but just to be clear, Joker was most certainly not directed by Scorsese. Though it did use two of his films as *cough* ...inspiration.

Edit: Sorry, somehow skipped right past Captain Demotion already going into detail. My bad.

 

[Christopher]

Set Harth already pointed this out with a joke but just to be clear, Joker was most certainly not directed by Scorsese. Though it did use two of his films as *cough* ...inspiration.

The first time I saw a trailer for Joker, I wasn't sure if it was a real trailer or a parody, since it seemed like a spoof of a self-consciously hyper-serious attempt to do a comic book movie in the style of Scorsese.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Nothing is ever as simple as one or other factor, I agree with that. But I think the various other factors you mention were much more significant in the box office performances of Flash & Shazam 2 than the fact of that cinematic universe being wrapped up.

I think the comment about word of mouth is bang on the money.

FWIW, Scorsese had no involvement with Joker, he was initially involved in a production capacity but was never down to direct it (it was always Todd Philips’ baby). By the time the film went into production, he’d left the project entirely.

I misremembered the Scorsese part, yes.

But again, it's easy to say, 'well all that stuff is way more important than the interconnectedness' but other movies with the same kind of disadvantages did way better than these movies specifically because they were interconnected to a shared universe people were still invested in.

Ant-man and the Wasp beat Black Adam by over 230m. I'm sorry, I'm a huge MCU fan and wasn't thrilled by the Rock, either, but that difference makes absolutely no sense based on just the movies themselves. I haven't seen The Flash, but most people who have seem to agree its the best of these recent DC films, yet it made less than half of AmatW.

Hell, Eternals outgrossed all of these DC films in the middle of a pandemic with the worst reviews the MCU had ever had and characters even most comics fans had never heard of.

The shared universe excitement clearly matters.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I misremembered the Scorsese part, yes.

But again, it's easy to say, 'well all that stuff is way more important than the interconnectedness' but other movies with the same kind of disadvantages did way better than these movies specifically because they were interconnected to a shared universe people were still invested in.

Ant-man and the Wasp beat Black Adam by over 230m. I'm sorry, I'm a huge MCU fan and wasn't thrilled by the Rock, either, but that difference makes absolutely no sense based on just the movies themselves. I haven't seen The Flash, but most people who have seem to agree its the best of these recent DC films, yet it made less than half of AmatW.

Hell, Eternals outgrossed all of these DC films in the middle of a pandemic with the worst reviews the MCU had ever had and characters even most comics fans had never heard of.

The shared universe excitement clearly matters.

I think we can only argue “what ifs” for so long and like I say there are a lot of competing factors in why films do well or so badly. I would suggest though that recent MCU films for the most part have done better than the DC ones (and I personally enjoyed Flash better than the Eternals or Quantumania) because audiences have found them to be reliable entertainment over the last decade whereas the DC ones have been much more hit and miss. I think that’s probably more a factor than any great connectivity (Eternals has little to connect it with other MCU films, after all). But I don’t claim to have any great insight into what audiences want, and, like you say, there are various factors to take into account.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I think we can only argue “what ifs” for so long and like I say there are a lot of competing factors in why films do well or so badly. I would suggest though that recent MCU films for the most part have done better than the DC ones (and I personally enjoyed Flash better than the Eternals or Quantumania) because audiences have found them to be reliable entertainment over the last decade whereas the DC ones have been much more hit and miss. I think that’s probably more a factor than any great connectivity (Eternals has little to connect it with other MCU films, after all). But I don’t claim to have any great insight into what audiences want, and, like you say, there are various factors to take into account.

I'm definitely not trying to say that making every movie a cameo fest is what makes interconnectedness work. The issue is how much people are invested in the universe. And I agree part of the reason far more people are invested in the MCU than in the DCEU is because of years of good reception strengthening the Marvel brand while years of hit or miss reception weakened the DC brand.

I just don't think the fact that WB looked at what remained of their fanbase and said 'This whole universe is going in the trash at the end of the year' can reasonably be dismissed as some insignificant event that couldn't possibly have an effect on that fanbase's overall investment in the universe. Especially considering just how badly these movies are dying on the vine, which really is kind of astonishing.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I'm definitely not trying to say that making every movie a cameo fest is what makes interconnectedness work. The issue is how much people are invested in the universe. And I agree part of the reason far more people are invested in the MCU than in the DCEU is because of years of good reception strengthening the Marvel brand while years of hit or miss reception weakened the DC brand.

I just don't think the fact that WB looked at what remained of their fanbase and said 'This whole universe is going in the trash at the end of the year' can reasonably be dismissed as some insignificant event that couldn't possibly have an effect on that fanbase's overall investment in the universe. Especially considering just how badly these movies are dying on the vine, which really is kind of astonishing.

Yeah, that’s probably fair, though IIRC Black Adam (just) preceded the decision to reboot and flopped despite the widely-leaked Cavill cameo (and Dwayne’s own proven box office record, which was considerably above that of Ezra or Zachary Levi). Anything else is above my pay grade!

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Wasn't Black Adam touted as saving the DCU and planned to move things forward from there?

From Johson's twitter, "Black Adam will serve as our phase 1 of storytelling in our DC Universe. Exciting times for the brand to build up and build out."

Again. Early reviews and word of mouth said "Don't bother." A week later, Gunn took over. So we can't say that it had anything to do with the trashing of the universe, the brand was already taking a nosedive all by itself. The following movies continued the trend.

I actually believe Johnson did more damage than good with the direction he wanted to take things, avoiding the Shazam connection almost completely and wanting to make things about him and then him and Superman.

 

[Christopher]

I heard a ton of negative hype about Black Adam, but I thought it was actually pretty good. At least, I came away really wishing we could've seen several previous movies about Hawkman & Dr. Fate's earlier adventures, and some sequels with the new JSA members.