I did that with Return of the Jedi then Empire Strikes Back then Star Wars.
Strangely, Star Wars remains my favorite.
The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
Strangely, Star Wars remains my favorite.
I love TUC. I was 12 at the time. 13 when it came out on VHS here in the UK. I saved up and rented it from Blockbuster Video at least twice, drove my parents nuts wanting to re-watch it. I loved how it tied in to Unification Part 1 and 2. Star Trek had developed into a modern myth that was neatly bound together in Homeric fashion, its one of the reasons why I think so many fans take issue with DSC et.al.
For me, Star Trek VI is the best of the Original Series movies, a culmination of all the movies that came before it. It combines the epic scale and ideas driven plot of The Motion Picture with the action and excitement of The Wrath of Khan, the emotional heart of The Search For Spock, the humour of The Voyage Home and the sense of family that was explored in The Final Frontier. Its the perfect swansong for the Original Series and elegantly passes the baton on to The Next Generation.
Incidentally, the surround sound on this one is much better than any of the other classic movies and I love the score. I think its still the only Star Trek movie to win a Saturn Award for best Science Fiction film.
The studio’s desire to make this the last original series movie was, in my opinion a terrible marketing move. Star Trek VI would be the 15th highest grossing film of 1991 and have the best opening weekend of any movie in the series up to that date. Star Trek VI had a worldwide take of around a hundred million dollars from a twenty five million dollar budget. This profit excludes VHS, DVD,Blu-Ray and 4K sales.
For me, Star Trek VI is the best of the Original Series movies, a culmination of all the movies that came before it. It combines the epic scale and ideas driven plot of The Motion Picture with the action and excitement of The Wrath of Khan, the emotional heart of The Search For Spock, the humour of The Voyage Home and the sense of family that was explored in The Final Frontier. Its the perfect swansong for the Original Series and elegantly passes the baton on to The Next Generation.
Incidentally, the surround sound on this one is much better than any of the other classic movies and I love the score. I think its still the only Star Trek movie to win a Saturn Award for best Science Fiction film.
The studio’s desire to make this the last original series movie was, in my opinion a terrible marketing move. Star Trek VI would be the 15th highest grossing film of 1991 and have the best opening weekend of any movie in the series up to that date. Star Trek VI had a worldwide take of around a hundred million dollars from a twenty five million dollar budget. This profit excludes VHS, DVD,Blu-Ray and 4K sales.
Wasn't a marketing move so much as it was facing reality. The cast was getting expensive (Shatner and Nimoy were each pulling down $6 million per movie by that point) and getting older (Kelley, notably, was already in rapidly declining health). Meanwhile, The Next Generation was one of the hottest shows on television.
between the two, I think TWOK was superior, but I like them both. But after the good folks over at OTOY had put out their Memory Wall clips, I find myself thinking more about the "styles of storytelling" we saw in the TOS cast movies. And I find myself appreciating TMP even more than before.
TWOK brought us a fun action flick with great visual effects, a compelling villain, a little bit of humanizing humor, and a gut wrenching ending. It was a somewhat classic framework nd worked well. TUC was similar, but I found it to be more political intrigue in a scifi setting. What I appreciate about both is that, for the most part, they took themselves seriously. The movies in between were slipping into silliness which I didnt like, peaking at TFF. Im glad TUC brought us back to something that wasnt intended to be borderline comedic.
What TMP had was the grand "mysteries in deep space" kinda story telling. Putting aside the production problems, and the edge of your seats script development, it captured the mystique of what I think Star Trek stories *could* have been. More in tune with 2001:ASO style of storytelling.
TWOK brought us a fun action flick with great visual effects, a compelling villain, a little bit of humanizing humor, and a gut wrenching ending. It was a somewhat classic framework nd worked well. TUC was similar, but I found it to be more political intrigue in a scifi setting. What I appreciate about both is that, for the most part, they took themselves seriously. The movies in between were slipping into silliness which I didnt like, peaking at TFF. Im glad TUC brought us back to something that wasnt intended to be borderline comedic.
What TMP had was the grand "mysteries in deep space" kinda story telling. Putting aside the production problems, and the edge of your seats script development, it captured the mystique of what I think Star Trek stories *could* have been. More in tune with 2001:ASO style of storytelling.
Agreed about the allegory. I watch movies and TV to be entertained. I want something that is fun to watch and something that I will enjoy. I don't give a rat's ass about tying a movie into current events. I get enough of that excrement in real life. Some people enjoy and want that stuff. I don't. Keep your damned message out of my entertainment.
On a more positive note, I think I like TUC more now than I did when it was released, the message notwithstanding. Same with TMP. However, Wrath of Khan will always be my favorite original cast Star Trek movie.
Last edited:
Kind of a self-serving retweet lol. Anyway, still TWoK. TUC is good, though I think Meyer went a little overboard with the old naval feel. Actual books on the bridge was a bit much.
Now that you mention it, the films with the most obvious message are those I tend to enjoy the least - even though I don't hate any of the Star Trek features. Not a single one.
The Voyage Home falls to the bottom of my list in favorites order of the first 6 mostly because I don't like Star Trek as a full comedy and also because the "save the whales" message is delivered with all the subtlety of a gunshot to the face. Hell they STOP THE MOVIE to show us Kirk and Spock watching a documentary on whale hunting when they get to the institute. And Catherine Hicks is just grating. Also Leonard Rosenman.
TUC: same, the message was shouted at me with a bullhorn. "Klingons are like the Russians and we have to WORK TOGETHER!" also "RACISM IS BAD!" Got it. Also. Jokes.
TFF: Don't believe religious cult leaders who are too wrapped up in their own vanity. And "embrace your pain." At least it was fun with a great score.
The first 3? Incredible, easily my favorites. The messages are much more subtle and their aimed at a more serious, dare I say adult, audience. There was far less winking and self-awareness.
Both Wrath and Undiscovered Country are the two best Star Trek movies, period. They are very different films though. One is a revenge plot built using the scaffolds of Moby Dick and the other is a political commentary about the end of the Cold War and the way older people interact with the idea that they can/should no longer hate & despise their old enemy.
Of the two, I like The Undiscovered Country more than Wrath but not by much. The two movies are really in a league of their own compared to the other movies.
Of the two, I like The Undiscovered Country more than Wrath but not by much. The two movies are really in a league of their own compared to the other movies.
Well, they're certainly your favorites, but whether they are both the best is arguable.
Which is reasonable. I do not think any really come close to those two. Maybe First Contact. Maybe.
Frankly, I liked Star Trek VI more in the overall because of the fact that it entails the fact that decades of distrust tend to be hard to let go of, and this shows that both sides had serious misgivings about the idea over various reasons.
The fact that it's not uncommon to see plots form in organizations which are not always in the interest of the organization as a whole is also something this covered decently for the time.
I didn't like Kirk's "they're animals" and "let them die" sentiments (neither did William Shatner, interestingly), particularly when he didn't even know he had a son for most all of his life.
The fact that it's not uncommon to see plots form in organizations which are not always in the interest of the organization as a whole is also something this covered decently for the time.
I didn't like Kirk's "they're animals" and "let them die" sentiments (neither did William Shatner, interestingly), particularly when he didn't even know he had a son for most all of his life.
Only according to Star Trek Movie Memories, which is about 85 percent bullshit outside of the direct quotes.
But he did know he had a son.
Kirk: Is that David?
Kirk: I did what you wanted. I stayed away. Why didn't you tell him?
Kirk always knew he had a son named David but he never believed in the possibility he'd ever reconnect with him. Even cements that idea further when he addresses that his son might even help Khan try to kill him. That scene with Kirk and David in his quarters was a moment Kirk thought would never happen. Here is Kirk beaten and dealing with the loss of his best friend and his son shows him that there is still something he can admire about him. David helped give Kirk new confidence in himself. That's a lot of important stuff that was taken away from Kirk by the Klingons for no reason.
In one of the deleted scenes of twok from the theatrical version, when kirk has returned to the enterprise fomr the genesis planet, and theyre climbing through jefferies tubes to get to the bridge, he exclaims " I have a son!" to spock. I think that scene was brought back in later releases but the dialog was scrubbed.
Kirk in the first half of ST III isn't cocky at all. Still mourning Spock and full of doubts.
If TWOK had been released in 1984, it would have been a PG-13 rating.
The only time when I think he's particularly cocky in TSFS is when they're stealing the Enterprise, and part of that may be an act to keep his friends' spirits up.
He certainly isn't cocky later in the film.
Doesn't matter what was in a previous script. What matters is what was finished and what was finished indicates that Kirk knew he had a son and that his name was David.
Similar threads
