Klingon bastards.
The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
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It does a great job in showing both factions being multifaceted.
Though I wish the Klingon outpost scene wasn't:
(a) played for laughs by reducing Uhura to the butt of a joke (TVH onward did the comedy routine, but at least TVH had the context to make it work. "Fish out of water". Everything afterward isn't even "camp". It's "asinine". But before I digress...)
(b) as superficial otherwise. Two Klingons are apathetic, and rightly so as they seem to let anyone through. What luck, woohoo!! They're not the mirror images of the underlings who said some nasty things with Valeris standing there listening and smirking in her own way as they tell the duo to "snap to it". (They are Burke and Sando, of course, and that's another plus that these side characters are not mirror images of the Federation baddies. We had Chang and Cartwright as representatives of their species doing the mustache-twirling shenanigans already, and they were important enough. But, dang, what would be going on with the Council who had worked with Chang and Cartwright and not realizing the go-go kooky irony of it all! Which is also the point, I'd thought. The movie does given an explanation, but it's not made by the Klingons - only by outside observers, who only have theori-- oh sheesharoonies, now I'm quoting Scotty... but before I digress.)
(c) I digressed the first time too late...
Especially after TFF, Kirk's opening comes across as forced. It's needed for the narrative, but TFF shows signs of budding peace and then comes TUC, where - out of the blue - Kirk's acting like a rabid dachshund. TUC already had some opening scenes cut, though that's usually been defined as Kirk bringing the crew back together. Not another major incident where Kirk is more resolute than ever.
TWOK is a "revenge film" and it's very well told and with perfect pacing. But TUC not only has a revenge-themed aspect, as well as creating a new villain who's as charismatic as Khan (Chang rules), it's building upon their universe..
And that's just it: TWOK is introspective and revolving around two characters, TUC is the inverse of this and thinking of a grander scheme and succeeds against a ton of odds. Both are class acts of their main storytelling points. It's why I could do TUC in the theater thrice, and had I been old enough to drive in 1982 I'd likely have seen TWOK as many times as well.
* especially as the TOS crew were almost ditched in favor of a comparatively daft "Let's show them all as youngster cadets where they all meet and end up on the same ship in all its small-universe-syndrome glory!") Either way, Kirk's era would close and TNG would get to focus on its own cast (save for Kirk returning, for whatever magical ribbony reason but, in an odd turn of events and odd favor for using an academy prequel flick instead, the movie would not have had Shatner in it and - in turn - make his appearance in GEN a tad better... comparatively speaking. And in such a world, how would GEN have been written to introduce him? Would it still be the convoluted and nonsensical Nexus guff that had Nimoy balking? I prefer TUC as it was made to be. IMHO, YMMV. )
AFAIK, there was never any other incident in the script to "justify" Kirk's prejudice against Klingons. (Geez, you'd think fighting them for 30+ years and them killing his son would be enough...
) The only place there was anything like that was in J.M Dillard's novelization of STVI, where Carol Marcus was injured in a Klingon attack that was later revealed to be General Chang testing out his invisible Bird of Prey.Yeah...as it is, you kind of have to assume that something bad must have happened between TFF and TUC to harden Kirk's attitude toward the Klingons...or, perhaps more easily for some, just assume TFF never happened.
I don't know whether one could get away with thinking that TFF was so soon after TFF-TVH that Kirk still hadn't fully processed how much David's death had hurt him.
I don't know whether one could get away with thinking that TFF was so soon after TFF-TVH that Kirk still hadn't fully processed how much David's death had hurt him.
No, you really don't.
If it's a choice between keeping TFF or TUC, I'll throw TFF out of continuity in a heartbeat.
Not really. Playing nice at a light reception celebrating defeat of a mutual enemy is not a hard sell. If Kang can do it Kirk can do it.
Aye. Roll with some headcanon and it definitely works. Casual fans, or those being too linear and also not discounting TFF as a whole to get around making it fit better in the series (as opposed to "II-IV, VI") would still be taken slightly aback.
If TVH spent time with the political intrigue, which would have included the ramifications of Kirk's son.
There's just one small problem with that: In TSFS, Kirk offers his hand, in sincere peace in a time of crisis, to save the life of the guy who killed his son. Yeah, Kruge preferred to off himself and take Kirk down in the process, in what I would guess is a devout belief to a misbelief that Kirk was going to use Genesis to conquer the universe*, but would that really equate to Kirk hating all Klingons, all the time, forevermore? Maybe as a snap reaction in III, but not necessarily after several years later. Perhaps, or perhaps not.
Plus, TFF still shows signs of genuine peace at the end of the movie, which still renders more complex, if not more convoluted, the narrative of "KIRK IS TEH EVIL UNFLINCHING RACIST". Shatner, who co-wrote V, was also trying to show that Kirk had moved on. Superhuman that Kirk is, he was already doing so by the end of III - which is a power and thoughtful scene in its own right. That's Kirk. What was set up in VI is arguably not. The infamous scene in TUC simply needed more more narrative grounding. The movie spent the complexities of Kirk with other issues and not wrongly so, but using the death of David Marcus for two token scenes was just waaaaaaay too thin to ride such a large topic on...
...which now brings up the issue "30 years of war". Are we talking the people based on physical attributes or common actions? One is racist. One is not. Monolithic discussions aside, since 5th columns and numerous other issues invariably occur, some people can change attitudes over time as well and Kirk was showing that rather strongly in III and V...
...The events of III and V go rather against the grain of "THEY'RE ANIMALS, LET THEM DIE". (IV simply bypasses the situation entirely and solely for nyuk-nyuk jokes.) There is enough time between the events of V and VI to headcanon it away... ...or there's a pre-meeting scene where Kirk loads up on Romulan ale mixed with Saurian Brandy so he can let his evil side out. It's lame, but if one has to roll with it, and he did pat Valeris on the head (metaphorically speaking) for suggesting they all get drunk on Romulan Ale at their hosting Gorkin as well, which was rather beyond being just a stupid idea - so, perhaps, it can fit.
In the end, we arguably still need something tighter between TFF and TUC to make Kirk so rabid and out of the blue. Spock's setup and speech that chucks in everything clunkily didn't help either. Stuff about ozone depletion and 50 years left and it's all due just because one planet's moon went splodeyboomboom yet they have lots of planets, and big FTL ships to haul asses with, which also have sensors so they can find other planets with the diplotium they need and so on - the movie does have the viewer coast on "molehill into mountain melodrama" as well, and yet that's far easier to roll with than how Kirk was treated. And not just because the payoff of the large-scale drama was more satisfying than Kirk's half-hokey one-liner about "you have restored my son's".
Or is the point that Kirk was getting into senior citizen years where, of course, all senior citizens yell at clouds and tell kids to get off their lawn and every other stereotype in a quaint twist of irony?
* moohahaha
There's 5 or 6 years between TFF and TUC on the official ST Timeline, and people can become more bitter over time.
Honestly, the people who refuse to accept the murder of David as a justification for Kirk hating Klingons remind me of Sherlock Holmes in "A Study in Pink": "That was ages ago. Why would she still be upset?"
I don't think it's outright hatred, let alone of all Klingons (he does say "let them die" but even with the film not showing that he then looks regretful his change of tone of voice suggests he does regret going that far), just sense/belief that way too many of them are untrustworthy and aggressive and that yes it is hard to just forgive, set aside, that they did kill his son and now they should be allies and recipients of aid, let alone skepticism and annoyance that that has to happen right now let alone that he has to be the one to do make it happen. And despite that skepticism, annoyance, to some extent hostility he is then still willing to do it, try to do it, and then feels bad when it seems that Gorkon had actually been sincere about wanting to change and meeting them partway and from his killing was not able to.
I think it should be noted that the two times I'm recalling when Kirk's behavior is at his worst ("Let them die!" and during his personal log) are both times when he's not his best self either. The first scene involves (from his perspective) Spock having ripped the floor out from under him and them already being in an argument, and even then, as noted, Kirk immediately looks regretful about what he said. In the second scene he's reciting his personal log and obviously David's murder is very much on his mind, and he's still stinging from being tasked with a mission he didn't want to be assigned to in the first place...and even then, all he's saying is that he doesn't trust the Klingons, which for the life he's lived is a pretty understandable mindset (albeit one that will predictably blow up in his face at the trial in front of an all-Klingon audience).
TL;DR I don't think Kirk's worst moments in this film necessarily represent his general feelings toward Klingons, but rather how his Worst Self feels about them.
TL;DR I don't think Kirk's worst moments in this film necessarily represent his general feelings toward Klingons, but rather how his Worst Self feels about them.
That's how I saw it basically. Now we can argue what TFF intended at the end, potential peace with the Klingons? But there's plenty of wiggle room that you can easily argue there's no real contradiction.
And in TFF Kirk is hardly friendly towards the Klingons. He makes a couple comments about not liking them, and referred to them as you Klingon bastards once again. He set that hatred aside temporarily out of necessity basically. And don't forget there were several years between TFF and TUC. It could be that his hatred and animosity grew over the years, which happens all the time. Maybe the Klingon Empire was being aggressive during those years, even if they didn't do anything to Kirk directly. Maybe they were just being a thorn in Starfleet's side and that just justified Kirk's animosity in his eyes even more, "The Klingon bastards are at it again." There's tons of ways to easily explain it.
And for me I just never saw a contradiction. He didn't like Klingons in TFF, and he disliked them even more by the time of TUC. One light reception, one moment of peace, doesn't really change anything.
Exactly. I mean, it comes down to "does he trust Klingons to actually want peace?" And the answer is, no he doesn't. And then he is forced in to the situation, berated by Spock to do it, and trapped in this mission. And he's so supposed to go "*shrug* What issues?" about it.
There are many that seemed convinced that managing trauma does not mean it cannot resurface. Given the stressors of the circumstances his reaction is not out of character nor requires explanation.
Having watched both movies in the last two weeks as a comparison, this is my takeaway.
TUC is a better overall story. It's a great idea and has compelling drama. The whole cast gets something interesting to do. However, whatever "darkness" this film is credited with is undercut by humor at every opportunity. I would argue that is has a many gags as Star Trek V, but these just usually tend to land better. Cut back the goofiness and this could have been the best, most adult film in the series. Sadly, the (I assume) studio mandated chuckles rob this film of bite. I am considering making a "less humor" edit to see how it feels.
Nick Meyer's direction is mostly excellent and assured, but his stubborn insistence to make the film even more nautical than TWOK is annoying ("right standard rudder" and "ship to shore").
The film is also obvious. For me, Star Trek works best when the morality plays are well camoflaged so you can watch it and miss it. TUC is as in your face as TVH.
TWOK is a better movie, even if the main story is simpler. It's more consistent in tone, a very serious space adventure with a personal, adult story for Kirk. The supporting cast is shunted aside to make room for Saavik, David and Carol, but Chekov gets his best role in the films. The humor that's there is all in character and there isn't a single, solitary "gag." It's lean, has purpose, and delivers multiple dramatic and emotional punches. It also has the superior score by James Horner.
Kirk's midlife crisis, his squandering of his natual abilities, not taking responsibility for his choices and his final realization of the important things in life are part of a wonderful arc and a great theme for the story. You can also completely enjoy this film without noticing the point.
I also like the little touches. Like Carol knowing Spock without us being told why (could be any number of reasons). And how David accepts that Kirk is his father without a lot of handwringing. He's told between scenes, sees the man is as human as his is and takes pride in his lineage.
TWOK is a rich film on a personal level.
I think TUC is a great Star Trek movie. it's a fantastic "series" finale for the cast (and yes, Kirk's arc is really great). But where TWOK is mostly about Kirk and his choices, TUC is about Star Trek. As a film, I find that less satisfying. However, as a series finale, I think it's totally appropriate. The final conversation between Kirk and Spock before the climactic battle is wonderful. I love watching these two old friends come to terms with their place in the grand scheme.
TWOK is a wonderful film that I love without apology or qualification. TUC is a film I like alot but things about it bother me. Neither film is perfect, both needed someone with fresh eyes to look at it and smooth out plot holes. But for me TWOK will always be the better film.
However, as I said above, if TUC didn't have as many gags, I would probably have a much harder time choosing.
TUC is a better overall story. It's a great idea and has compelling drama. The whole cast gets something interesting to do. However, whatever "darkness" this film is credited with is undercut by humor at every opportunity. I would argue that is has a many gags as Star Trek V, but these just usually tend to land better. Cut back the goofiness and this could have been the best, most adult film in the series. Sadly, the (I assume) studio mandated chuckles rob this film of bite. I am considering making a "less humor" edit to see how it feels.
Nick Meyer's direction is mostly excellent and assured, but his stubborn insistence to make the film even more nautical than TWOK is annoying ("right standard rudder" and "ship to shore").
The film is also obvious. For me, Star Trek works best when the morality plays are well camoflaged so you can watch it and miss it. TUC is as in your face as TVH.
TWOK is a better movie, even if the main story is simpler. It's more consistent in tone, a very serious space adventure with a personal, adult story for Kirk. The supporting cast is shunted aside to make room for Saavik, David and Carol, but Chekov gets his best role in the films. The humor that's there is all in character and there isn't a single, solitary "gag." It's lean, has purpose, and delivers multiple dramatic and emotional punches. It also has the superior score by James Horner.
Kirk's midlife crisis, his squandering of his natual abilities, not taking responsibility for his choices and his final realization of the important things in life are part of a wonderful arc and a great theme for the story. You can also completely enjoy this film without noticing the point.
I also like the little touches. Like Carol knowing Spock without us being told why (could be any number of reasons). And how David accepts that Kirk is his father without a lot of handwringing. He's told between scenes, sees the man is as human as his is and takes pride in his lineage.
TWOK is a rich film on a personal level.
I think TUC is a great Star Trek movie. it's a fantastic "series" finale for the cast (and yes, Kirk's arc is really great). But where TWOK is mostly about Kirk and his choices, TUC is about Star Trek. As a film, I find that less satisfying. However, as a series finale, I think it's totally appropriate. The final conversation between Kirk and Spock before the climactic battle is wonderful. I love watching these two old friends come to terms with their place in the grand scheme.
TWOK is a wonderful film that I love without apology or qualification. TUC is a film I like alot but things about it bother me. Neither film is perfect, both needed someone with fresh eyes to look at it and smooth out plot holes. But for me TWOK will always be the better film.
However, as I said above, if TUC didn't have as many gags, I would probably have a much harder time choosing.
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I think this is a very even-handed analysis of both films. Well-spoken!
In some ways I think any film after TWOK suffers from the mere fact that they have nothing to offer that's as emotionally devastating as the death of Spock (or arguably the destruction of the Enterprise in TSFS, but that's a mere one film later).
I do think the assassination sequence in TUC is fairly horrifying to watch as well, and I laud the film for getting us at least as invested in Gorkon and wanting to believe him as it does, but we're still watching a bunch of characters we've never met before this film.
Agreed, the assassination sequence is really disturbing and would have gotten the film an R rating if the blood wasn't that purpleish color.
I actually am fine with the adversaries being people we've never seen before. In this age of fan service and Easter Eggs, this film is refreshing in its ability to tie up conflicts from the past without one single callback that wasn't necessary to the story. Kirk's mistrust of Klingons goes back to their first appearance.
My only huge issue with Meyer's direction was his choice to crowed every scene on the Epterprise with extras and then overdirect them. Most of them aren't doing anything but standing around and when they're asked to contribute to the scene, it's over the top. Yeah, yeah, "crowded like a submarine" or some such, but it's one more thing to add a layer of cheese to what should have been a very dramatic film.
I actually am fine with the adversaries being people we've never seen before. In this age of fan service and Easter Eggs, this film is refreshing in its ability to tie up conflicts from the past without one single callback that wasn't necessary to the story. Kirk's mistrust of Klingons goes back to their first appearance.
My only huge issue with Meyer's direction was his choice to crowed every scene on the Epterprise with extras and then overdirect them. Most of them aren't doing anything but standing around and when they're asked to contribute to the scene, it's over the top. Yeah, yeah, "crowded like a submarine" or some such, but it's one more thing to add a layer of cheese to what should have been a very dramatic film.
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^It's funny you should mention that...after three (or arguably four) movies that focused on Our Heroes basically on their own, I found it refreshing to see the ship fully crewed and back at the top of its game, though I'll concede your point that the extras acting may not have been the best at all times.
TMP: New refit.
TWOK: Trainees, but at least there's people around.
TSFS: Our Heroes
TVH: Our Heroes
TFF: Skeleton crew.
TUC: Fully crewed and fully operational.
TMP: New refit.
TWOK: Trainees, but at least there's people around.
TSFS: Our Heroes
TVH: Our Heroes
TFF: Skeleton crew.
TUC: Fully crewed and fully operational.
Oh I agree and am fine with a full crew. But at least in TMP, they all looked like they were working and not standing around or jammed into rooms (except for that one assembly scene). Look at all the people searching one cabin and the "comin' thru, comin' thru" guy. This was all on Meyer. He wanted the ship crowded and busy but it felt artifical to me. YMMV, of course, and it's a small thing overall. Just something I felt took away from the reality of it.
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