DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[fireproof78]

n particular, it seemed to me that many of the problems could have been avoided if Superman had just talked to people, if he'd let himself be a public presence from the start like many other versions of Superman have done, instead of remaining this mysterious, aloof, Dr. Manhattan-ish figure that created so many doubts about his intentions even nearly two years after his debut.

Possibly controversial take, simply because I really do not care one way or the other about Superman. But, Snyder's version is one that I get. From the beginning he is different, his dad tells him to be careful, to potentially let people die instead of embracing his full nature. And even afterwards, and his revealing himself as Superman, there is always that doubt. And that idea that "Well, I should just set the record straight" is one that sounds wonderful on paper, but as someone plagued with self-doubt I will tell you it is much easier for me to withdraw and stay silent than to "get my side of the story out." I don't want to get my side of the story out because I fear people will not believe me, or care. And that's as a human living among humans, not as an alien, living among humans struggling with a fear in the back of his mind of being an outsider.

And, on the other hand, I see your point and it's my biggest objection "Civil War" is that it feels like people punch and don't talk and I don't care for that movie. So I get that frustraton. I just understand Supermand's side much better.

 

[Christopher]

(Mind you, this isn't an attack on Snyder or his fans. I've gotten more comfortable with his DCEU entries in the past couple years. But Adams's Lois remains far and away the best thing about them.)

It's fascinating how much tastes can differ. I find Amy Adams perfectly capable and pleasant and inoffensive, but I don't find her to be anything special or outstanding, either as Lois or as any other character I've seen her play. I keep hearing people say she's this great, spectacular actress, and I don't see it. I have no negative opinions of her, but no particularly positive ones either. I guess different people look for different things.

Possibly controversial take, simply because I really do not care one way or the other about Superman. But, Snyder's version is one that I get. From the beginning he is different, his dad tells him to be careful, to potentially let people die instead of embracing his full nature. And even afterwards, and his revealing himself as Superman, there is always that doubt. And that idea that "Well, I should just set the record straight" is one that sounds wonderful on paper, but as someone plagued with self-doubt I will tell you it is much easier for me to withdraw and stay silent than to "get my side of the story out." I don't want to get my side of the story out because I fear people will not believe me, or care. And that's as a human living among humans, not as an alien, living among humans struggling with a fear in the back of his mind of being an outsider.

That's a fair assessment. Basically, this is a story about flawed people whose character flaws exacerbate a situation that could be resolved more easily. That's a valid way of telling a story, but it's a pessimistic one, more so than the usual approach to Superman. Snyder's Clark is a relatable character, but he's very unsure of himself and not very good at being Superman compared to most of his multiversal counterparts.

Anyway, as I said, I get now why people would like this movie, even though its take on the characters is not my preferred one. It's like Tim Burton's Batman, which I think is a terrible interpretation of Batman but a pretty good movie about an eccentric Tim Burtonish protagonist dressing up in a costume to fight crime.

Meanwhile, realizing how badly the theatrical BvS was sabotaged by hamfisted editing makes me more curious to see the Ayer cut of Suicide Squad.

 

[fireproof78]

That's a fair assessment. Basically, this is a story about flawed people whose character flaws exacerbate a situation that could be resolved more easily. That's a valid way of telling a story, but it's a pessimistic one, more so than the usual approach to Superman. Snyder's Clark is a relatable character, but he's very unsure of himself and not very good at being Superman compared to most of his multiversal counterparts.

I guess that brings the question around as far as what makes a good Superman? For me, more relatable but with powers is far more enjoyable than aloof, god-like and separated. Not saying that's the only way, but when I watch other Superman properties the moments that I truly enjoy the character are not when he is using his powers but always of him connecting in a more human way. And, I guess it's just me, but self-doubt is one of the most human things in my experience.

 

[The Realist]

I really do not care one way or the other about Superman.

For someone who disavows any interest in the character, you sure do opine about him frequently.

 

[fireproof78]

For someone who disavows any interest in the character, you sure do opine about him frequently.

I'm fascinated by you, and others, and their rather large interest in the character. There is an almost cult like fervor around getting this character right, and it fascinates me on a psychological level.

 

[The Realist]

I'm fascinated by you

Understandable.

and others, and their rather large interest in the character. There is an almost cult like fervor around getting this character right, and it fascinates me on a psychological level.

I actually found most of the comments in your posts above rather insightful. Though I find it interesting that you seem to like Snyder's take for NOT being "aloof, god-like and separated," since he comes off exactly that way to many observers. Most other versions of Superman are far more accessible and approachable than Snyder's, IMO. But apparently you find him so relatable because you perceive yourself as sharing many of his psychological traits, which is entirely reasonable.

 

[fireproof78]

I actually found most of the comments in your posts above rather insightful. Though I find it interesting that you seem to like Snyder's take for NOT being "aloof, god-like and separated," since he comes off exactly that way to many observers. Most other versions of Superman are far more accessible and approachable than Snyder's, IMO. But apparently you find him so relatable because you perceive yourself as sharing many of his psychological traits, which is entirely reasonable.

I think it's funny that I identify with it, mostly because he is a loner. I have rarely felt accepted as I am amongst a group of people. That's taken a long time to make peace with.

When I say "aloof and god-like" there is a difference to me between that an "a loner" though the two probably overlap more than I will notice. To me, it's the focus on the powers, and abilities and feats of strength. That's not really my interest but gives him that "aloof" sense; I can do this thing that you can't. Haha. That's the aloofness to me.

I find the conversations around "getting the character "right" far more interesting than the character itself. Superman, for me, is something fun, and fanciful and probably the closest I get to full on escapism in my entertainment. So, there isn't one right way to tell the story of Superman as a character to me. So, when I see you, and I say this respectfully, you have a love of this character I don't possess. And probably never will because that's not a part of me. It just is to me.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Possibly controversial take, simply because I really do not care one way or the other about Superman. But, Snyder's version is one that I get. From the beginning he is different, his dad tells him to be careful, to potentially let people die instead of embracing his full nature.

Well observed, and his father is speaking truthfully about the nature of human beings: a superpowered alien exposed to the world would cause a shock wave of fear, xenophobia and attempted exploitation throughout society (which the Cavill Superman would face in BvS), that the alien has to question a world where racial / cultural differences have and continue to be a call to action for the worst of human beliefs and actions. I certainly have a centuries-long family history of people killed for the same, so Kent's warning was deeply relatable. Any loving, realistic father would warn his son in that way, as opposed to other Pa Kent interpretations where they're treating Clark like a child soldier born to fight some flag-waving mission, which is not realistic or relatable. Man of Steel's version of Superman understood that he's not your next door neighbor, or a doll to be played with, but an outsider trying to find a place in a world where he might inspire some, but fuel inherent evil in others by virtue of his race / species. That kind of writing addressed the world as real, rational people know it to be, not an episode of the Super Friends, or The Care Bears.

This world--with today's people wanted to see a Superman who anyone could imagine navigating in the real world, which is what audiences received with the DCEU version.

 

[The Realist]

I think it's funny that I identify with it, mostly because he is a loner. I have rarely felt accepted as I am amongst a group of people. That's taken a long time to make peace with.

When I say "aloof and god-like" there is a difference to me between that an "a loner" though the two probably overlap more than I will notice. To me, it's the focus on the powers, and abilities and feats of strength. That's not really my interest but gives him that "aloof" sense; I can do this thing that you can't. Haha. That's the aloofness to me.

I find the conversations around "getting the character "right" far more interesting than the character itself. Superman, for me, is something fun, and fanciful and probably the closest I get to full on escapism in my entertainment. So, there isn't one right way to tell the story of Superman as a character to me. So, when I see you, and I say this respectfully, you have a love of this character I don't possess. And probably never will because that's not a part of me. It just is to me.

Reading your comments here and above, I don't think we're as far apart on the character as one might believe. Certainly some people approach Superman as a power fantasy, but for me, that's far, far down the list of things I enjoy about him. I'm much more interested in his fundamental humanity, his kindness and decency, and his relationship with Lois (a character who is at least equal in importance to me as Clark himself). So when you say above that "the moments that I truly enjoy the character are not when he is using his powers but always of him connecting in a more human way," I'm right there with you.

Not that the powers aren't cool, too. But for me, in terms of my focus, it's always the "man" first and the "super" second.

 

[Christopher]

I guess that brings the question around as far as what makes a good Superman? For me, more relatable but with powers is far more enjoyable than aloof, god-like and separated.

I agree with The Realist that you have this backward. Snyder's Superman is the aloof, separated one, the one who's still so distant from humanity after 18 months that they don't even realize how completely out of character it would be for him to burn hostages to death. Most versions of Superman are anything but aloof -- he's a neighborly farmboy, friendly and accessible and eager to help. (He's not unlike Anson Mount's Captain Pike, for example.) Christopher Reeve and Tyler Hoechlin have both captured this perfectly, though Superman & Lois often makes Superman more Snyderishly distant while Clark is the easygoing, cheerful dork.

Not saying that's the only way, but when I watch other Superman properties the moments that I truly enjoy the character are not when he is using his powers but always of him connecting in a more human way. And, I guess it's just me, but self-doubt is one of the most human things in my experience.

Nothing wrong with a character having doubts, but the DCEU Superman seems hobbled by his own indecisiveness. In MoS, he couldn't make a decision for himself until a male authority figure told him what to do, whether Jonathan, Jor-El, some random priest, or Zod. And 18 or so months later in BvS, he can't even decide whether to give an interview to explain himself to the public, even though he lives with a reporter. A character can have doubts without becoming ineffectual.

Again, Superman & Lois does a great job of keeping Superman pure and idealistic while still allowing him to be relatable and imperfect. It strikes an excellent balance. I'd say most modern versions of Superman give him plenty of doubt and inner conflict, often generated by his relationship with Lois, or by his wrestling with the ethics of how much he should intervene in people's lives. The idea that he's usually some perfect, simplified character with no flaws hasn't been current for nearly half a century.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree with The Realist that you have this backward. Snyder's Superman is the aloof, separated one, the one who's still so distant from humanity after 18 months that they don't even realize how completely out of character it would be for him to burn hostages to death. Most versions of Superman are anything but aloof -- he's a neighborly farmboy, friendly and accessible and eager to help. (He's not unlike Anson Mount's Captain Pike, for example.) Christopher Reeve and Tyler Hoechlin have both captured this perfectly, though Superman & Lois often makes Superman more Snyderishly distant while Clark is the easygoing, cheerful dork.

Again, it's my perception of how the character comes across. It doesn't ring as true to me, as human. It feels like a front. Synder's feels more understandable and honest.

Again, Superman & Lois does a great job of keeping Superman pure and idealistic while still allowing him to be relatable and imperfect. It strikes an excellent balance.

I will bear that in mind.

The idea that he's usually some perfect, simplified character with no flaws hasn't been current for nearly half a century.

No where have I argued this.

 

[Christopher]

Again, it's my perception of how the character comes across. It doesn't ring as true to me, as human. It feels like a front. Synder's feels more understandable and honest.

Well, people are entitled to different tastes. Before, I thought BvS was a fundamentally incompetent piece of filmmaking. Now, I see that the director's cut is actually a reasonably well-made story (with some notable flaws), taking a different approach than I prefer but at least doing it in a coherent and effective way. So that just makes it a question of preference rather than a question of quality. I'm glad I decided to give it a chance. It's improved my opinion of Snyder's capabilities as a filmmaker, though his work is still prone to excesses I dislike.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Again, it's my perception of how the character comes across. It doesn't ring as true to me, as human. It feels like a front. Synder's feels more understandable and honest.

Snyder's is based on living in reality as opposed to the barrel-chested, flag-waving, flying symbol who sits at the North Pole bursting at the seams to deliver goodies. There is nothing about 95% of all adapted Superman films and TV series that is relatable.Some seem Hell-bent on pushing the Santa/Daddy from On High into film adaptations, yet cannot understand why people--real people--cannot relate to such a caricature. People want to see a superhero challenged by events mirroring that which happens in reality or a fantasy approximation, as his or her struggle is how audiences engage with fiction. You cannot engage with nor relate to someone who stands above it all spewing Boy Scout nonsense that simply has no connection to the lived experiences or what can be imagined as a fantasy possibility.

This--as often pointed out-- is the reason for Singer's failure with Superman Returns, as he pulled a Superman from a dusty suitcase which had been placed there because it was out of pace with society long ago, and is just a silly relic now. The key reason so many loved and still support the Cavill Superman is his awareness of his alien separation from humanity--that no matter how much he tries to assimilate into human culture, establish a love life and friendships, he will--to some degree--still struggle with his place and a large part of the world that will reject him as an alien. That is all too relatable to millions. Santa/Daddy coughing up 1950s-esque, eternally tone-deaf (in the sociopolitical sense) parental / law-and-order platitudes that crashed and burned in that decade--and for good reason.

No where have I argued this.

Of course not, but you know....

 

[The Realist]

I'd just like to say thanks to Christopher and fireproof78 for the thoughtful and mutually respectful Superman discussion.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd just like to say thanks to Christopher and fireproof78 for the thoughtful and mutually respectful Superman discussion.

You both make Superman way more interesting.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I'm currently watching the latest episode of Fatman Beyond, and Kevin Smith explained how he got hold of the Schumacher Cut of Batman Forever (no Hollywood connections, it really was just a bootleg he got from a fan), and he reviewed it thoroughly, and well, it appears that Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey actually were more subdued than they appeared in the theatrical version. It appears they re-dubbed a lot of their lines in order to ham it up after the first few test screenings deemed it too serious and dark, which WB did not want after the reactions to Batman Returns. Also, the laundry scene was missing from this version, so they probably added it later to appeal to the little boys.

Also, for anybody really, really interested, Smith has pretty much said as open as legally possible that he'll show the Schumacher Cut to the audience of two of his upcoming shows in New Jersey.

 

[Dee1891]

Possibly controv

ersial take, simply because I really do not care one way or the other about Superman. But, Snyder's version is one that I get. From the beginning he is different, his dad tells him to be careful, to potentially let people die instead of embracing his full nature. And even afterwards, and his revealing himself as Superman, there is always that doubt. And that idea that "Well, I should just set the record straight" is one that sounds wonderful on paper, but as someone plagued with self-doubt I will tell you it is much easier for me to withdraw and stay silent than to "get my side of the story out." I don't want to get my side of the story out because I fear people will not believe me, or care. And that's as a human living among humans, not as an alien, living among humans struggling with a fear in the back of his mind of being an outsider.

And, on the other hand, I see your point and it's my biggest objection "Civil War" is that it feels like people punch and don't talk and I don't care for that movie. So I get that frustraton. I just understand Supermand's side much better.

The irony is that back in 2016, I was looking forward to the 3rd Captain America movie, being a big fan of the other 2 in that franchise. Now, I did enjoy Man of Steel a lot, which is why I had been looking forward to a second Superman solo film with Cavill. I did not want Batman v. Superman. And yet, it blew me away, much to my surprise. I had the 3rd Captain America movie to do the same. But I ended up feeling disappointed by it.

Actually, other versions of a young Clark Kent seemed a bit lonely and/or wary of others sometimes - especially Jeff East in the 1978 movie, Dean Cain (sometimes), and Tom Welling.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I had the 3rd Captain America movie to do the same. But I ended up feeling disappointed by it.

Civil War is often derided as being a third Avengers film for good reason, since its best moments--the Cap/Bucky/Falcon scenes where they're not interacting with the Avengers--were all too brief...for a Captain America sequel.

 

[Anwar]

Funny, when No Way Home used Tom Holland's third movie to instead wrap up all of the loose threads from Tobey and Andrews' movies instead of staying on Tom no one minded.

 

[Dee1891]

Funny, when No Way Home used Tom Holland's third movie to instead wrap up all of the loose threads from Tobey and Andrews' movies instead of staying on Tom no one minded.

Shouldn't this be discussed on a Marvel thread?