Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x06 - "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach"

[Sci]

There are some clear differences between the Prime Directive in TOS and TNG, so it’s not too hard to believe—moreover, the directive is portrayed as far more rigid in the TNG era.

It's certainly not impossible, but I would like to think both that the Federation grew out of the "we have to let the primitives go extinct if their planet has a natural disaster" nonsense and that the Federation always had a "don't interfere in someone else's civil war" rule.

 

[Ovation]

It's certainly not impossible, but I would like to think both that the Federation grew out of the "we have to let the primitives go extinct if their planet has a natural disaster" nonsense and that the Federation always had a "don't interfere in someone else's civil war" rule.

In fact they regressed. TOS era didn’t “let the primitives go extinct” (I AM KIROK!!!) nor did they stay out of “civil war” (Serpents. Serpents for the Garden of Eden). There are others. TNG, though, did leave primitives to their fate and refused to intervene.

 

[Noname Given]

I dunno, "don't get involved in someone else's civil war" seems like the sort of thing that would be part of the 23rd Century PD as well.

And you'd be wrong. In the 23c era the PD only applied to primitive non-spacefaring civilizations that didn't know about alien life on other worlds.

Unless both conditions were met, no the PD didn’t apply, and in that era the Federation Council and Starfleet often took political and military actions (IE interfering) if it was for political reasons advantageous to the Federation. (Just watch TOS episodes like Friday's Child, A Private Little War, and Elaan Of Troyius).

 

[Sci]

In fact they did regressed. TOS era didn’t “let the primitives go extinct” (I AM KIROK!!!) nor did they stay out of “civil war” (Serpents. Serpents for the Garden of Eden). There are others. TNG, though, did leave primitives to their fate and refused to intervene.

Yes, I know. I'm glad TOS-era Starfleet didn't just let planets go extinct, and I hope TNG-era Starfleet eventually dropped that silly nonsense.

And you'd be wrong. In the 23c era the PD only applied to primitive non-spacefaring civilizations that didn't know about alien life on other worlds.

Where was this established?

 

[Noname Given]

Yes, I know. I'm glad TOS-era Starfleet didn't just let planets go extinct, and I hope TNG-era Starfleet eventually dropped that silly nonsense.



Where was this established?

In the rest of my post that you failed to quote, there are 3 TOS episodes I mentioned that display this; but one I also just thought of where McCoy and Spock speak directly about the 23c PD is:

TOS S2 Bread And Circuses.

 

[Sci]

In the rest of my post that you failed to quote, there are 3 TOS episodes I mentioned that display this; but one I also just thought of where McCoy and Spock speak directly about the 23c PD is:

TOS S2 Bread And Circuses.

I just checked. At no point in "Friday's Child," "A Private Little War," "Elaan of Troyius," or "Bread and Circuses" does any character assert that the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.

 

[Oddish]

The matter of this planet seems settled, regardless of the minutiae of the greater rule: if Pike had been allowed to step in and end the First Servant's suffering, he would have at least discussed it with his staff. Clearly, the Prime Directive did not permit any interference. So, an episode where Starfleet goes in to intervene is unrealistic at best.

If I was going to write a sequel episode featuring Majelis, I would have it unfold something like this: someone embeds a later First Victim with a biological Trojan horse that causes the Brain Violation Circuitry to go berserk as soon as they are plugged into it, dooming the city to destruction. Desperate, the Majelians request Federation assistance in evacuating their population, since it's the only polity nearby with the capacity to move so many people. But when Pike arrives, he soon realizes that the faction who doomed the city may not be finished yet, and that there may be others with even more sinister motives. It would likely end with the survivors settled on a new and less hospitable world, but the medical knowledge that might have saved Pike was lost with their computers. Something like that anyway...

 

[Noname Given]

I just checked. At no point in "Friday's Child," "A Private Little War," "Elaan of Troyius," or "Bread and Circuses" does any character assert that the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.

Did you bother to actually watch any of them? I ask because Friday's Child deals with the Federation making a mining agreement with a pre-warp civilization. The reason they can do this is because the Klingons already contacted the inhabitants, so sad inhabitants know of alien life on other worlds thus the prime directive doesn't apply; thus the Federation can make a mining agreement with this primitive culture.

In A Private Little War, we learned that the prime directive isn't always automatically applied. Again we have a primitive civilization where Kirk lived among the primitives, and revealed himself and his origin to one of them while he did the survey to see if the prime directive applied, and ultimately the Federation Council decided it did based on his report:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/45.htm

SPOCK: Aside from that, you say it's a Garden of Eden?

KIRK: Or so it seemed to the brash young Lieutenant Kirk on his first planet survey.

SPOCK: Class M in all respects. Quite Earth-like.

KIRK: Except these people stayed in their Garden of Eden. Bows and arrows for hunting, but absolutely no fighting among themselves. Remarkably peaceful and tranquil

.
.
.

MCCOY: Want to think about it again, Jim? Starfleet's orders about this planet state no interference with

KIRK: No interference with normal social development. I'm not only aware of it, it was my survey thirteen years ago that recommended it.

MCCOY: I read it. Inhabitants superior in many ways to humans. Left alone, they undoubtedly someday will develop a remarkably advanced and peaceful culture.

KIRK: Indeed. And I intend to see that they have that chance. You coming with me?

MCCOY: Do I have a choice?

So yes in the 23rd century, the Federation does a planetary survey where possible to determine if the prime directive should be applied or not. It's not a blanket policy.

In Elaan Of Troyius, the civilization involved is space fairing, but doesn't have Warp Srive technology/capability. The only reason the Federation is getting involved is because the both the Federation and the Klingons claim the area of the system resides in: and at the start the Federation see some political advantage to annexing this star system. In the end they find out the reason the Klingons are so interested is because both planets have Dilithium Crystals that to the inhabitants are of little value because as Elon herself states: "...they are common stones..."
^^^
And it's possible Federation planners may have known this as well, and that's the reason they are getting involved with the situation in the system even though the cultures of both planets are pre-warp.

So again, if the 23rd Century Prime Directive was like you claim in the 24th century; the Federation shouldn't even be doing such surveys, making mining treaties with primitive cultures, or getting involved with the Affairs of pre-warp cultures; yet in the three episodes above they definitely are.

As for Bread And Circuses , here's a transcript of the exchange between McCoy and Spock that I was talking about:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/43.htm

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?

KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.

MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

KIRK: Let's go.

MCCOY: One, just once, I'd like to be able to land someplace and say, Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.

^^^
And the reason the Prime Directive is in full force here is because the civilization is both pre-warp, and has no knowledge about life on other planets.

Bottom line: there's plenty of evidence in TOS to show that the Federation Prime Directive of the 23rd century is quite different from the Federation Prime Directive of the 24th century.

So as far as this episode of Strange New Worlds, as the events in the episode take place in the 23rd century, that's the version of the Federation prime directive that is being applied in the episode. Because the civilization is both warp capable, and has knowledge and contact with alien life of other worlds, the 23c Federation Prime Directive doesn't apply.

Pike even States he'll report this incident to Starfleet and the Federation Council, but both he and the planet's leader know that the Federation will most likely not do anything because the planet is not a member of the United Federation of Planets, and they don't see a valid political or other advantageous reason to become involved with the situation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did you bother to actually watch any of them? I ask because Friday's Child deals with the Federation making a mining agreement with a pre-warp civilization. The reason they can do this is because the Klingons already contacted the inhabitants, so sad inhabitants know of alien life on other worlds thus the prime directive doesn't apply; thus the Federation can make a mining agreement with this primitive culture.

In A Private Little War, we learned that the prime directive isn't always automatically applied. Again we have a primitive civilization where Kirk lived among the primitives, and revealed himself and his origin to one of them while he did the survey to see if the prime directive applied, and ultimately the Federation Council decided it did based on his report:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/45.htm

.
.
.

So yes in the 23rd century, the Federation does a planetary survey where possible to determine if the prime directive should be applied or not. It's not a blanket policy.

In Elaan Of Troyius, the civilization involved is space fairing, but doesn't have Warp Srive technology/capability. The only reason the Federation is getting involved is because the both the Federation and the Klingons claim the area of the system resides in: and at the start the Federation see some political advantage to annexing this star system. In the end they find out the reason the Klingons are so interested is because both planets have Dilithium Crystals that to the inhabitants are of little value because as Elon herself states: "...they are common stones..."
^^^
And it's possible Federation planners may have known this as well, and that's the reason they are getting involved with the situation in the system even though the cultures of both planets are pre-warp.

So again, if the 23rd Century Prime Directive was like you claim in the 24th century; the Federation shouldn't even be doing such surveys, making mining treaties with primitive cultures, or getting involved with the Affairs of pre-warp cultures; yet in the three episodes above they definitely are.

As for Bread And Circuses , here's a transcript of the exchange between McCoy and Spock that I was talking about:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/43.htm

^^^
And the reason the Prime Directive is in full force here is because the civilization is both pre-warp, and has no knowledge about life on other planets.

Bottom line: there's plenty of evidence in TOS to show that the Federation Prime Directive of the 23rd century is quite different from the Federation Prime Directive of the 24th century.

So as far as this episode of Strange New Worlds, as the events in the episode take place in the 23rd century, that's the version of the Federation prime directive that is being applied in the episode. Because the civilization is both warp capable, and has knowledge and contact with alien life of other worlds, the 23c Federation Prime Directive doesn't apply.

Pike even States he'll report this incident to Starfleet and the Federation Council, but both he and the planet's leader know that the Federation will most likely not do anything because the planet is not a member of the United Federation of Planets, and they don't see a valid political or other advantageous reason to become involved with the situation.

Using a brain washed child as a sparkplug.

Sad but effective.

The Prime Directive stops Pike form taking and adapting that technology to Federation Worlds that need it. And frankly, if general utility and the gdp can be tripled over night, every planet in the federation needs one of those engines, and barrels of children to feed it.

This place goes beyond the Prime Directive, and needs to be on the same list as Talos IV. The Technology is so insidious, it should not be allowed to proliferate on a galactic magnitude under any circumstances.

They need a blockade.

 

[Sci]

Did you bother to actually watch any of them? I ask because Friday's Child deals with the Federation making a mining agreement with a pre-warp civilization. The reason they can do this is because the Klingons already contacted the inhabitants, so sad inhabitants know of alien life on other worlds thus the prime directive doesn't apply; thus the Federation can make a mining agreement with this primitive culture.

In A Private Little War, we learned that the prime directive isn't always automatically applied. Again we have a primitive civilization where Kirk lived among the primitives, and revealed himself and his origin to one of them while he did the survey to see if the prime directive applied, and ultimately the Federation Council decided it did based on his report:[/quote]

And nothing about that precludes the possibility that the Prime Directive always prohibits interfering in another culture's civil wars irrelevant of technological development.

So yes in the 23rd century, the Federation does a planetary survey where possible to determine if the prime directive should be applied or not. It's not a blanket policy.

Maybe. Or maybe "does the Prime Directive apply?" is actually a short-hand for certain parts of the Prime Directive.

In Elaan Of Troyius, the civilization involved is space fairing, but doesn't have Warp Srive technology/capability. The only reason the Federation is getting involved is because the both the Federation and the Klingons claim the area of the system resides in: and at the start the Federation see some political advantage to annexing this star system. In the end they find out the reason the Klingons are so interested is because both planets have Dilithium Crystals that to the inhabitants are of little value because as Elon herself states: "...they are common stones..."
^^^
And it's possible Federation planners may have known this as well, and that's the reason they are getting involved with the situation in the system even though the cultures of both planets are pre-warp.

Yes yes. And nothing about that precludes the possibility that the Prime Directive universally prohibits interfering in another culture's civil war, irrelevant of technological development.

So again, if the 23rd Century Prime Directive was like you claim in the 24th century;

Listen. I'm not actively claiming anything. I am saying that I hope the Prime Directive applies in terms of not getting involved in someone else's civil war, because I generally think that's a good policy no matter what. And I have certainly said I agree with you that the PD of TOS is not interpreted the same way as the PD of TNG.

Your interpretation -- that the PD in TOS is interpreted by the Federation so as not to preclude interfering in a foreign culture's civil war and that it only applies to pre-warp civilizations -- is just as legitimate an interpretation as mine. But the canonical evidence does not preclude mine.

 

[Mudd]

The Federation got well and truly involved in a civil war in "A Private Little War."

Fact is, the writers and producers of Star Trek ignored the damn PD whenever they felt like it, on the flimsiest of pretexts, back when they were creating what would later be designated "the 23rd century.*"

"To Hell with General Order One." - Christopher Pike


*Onscreen? Not until 1979, I don't think, if not later.

 

[Oddish]

Regardless, there's always a way around that particular stricture, whether it actually applies or not.

 

[Mudd]

Kirk found his way around it frequently. Pike has, once or twice. Roddenberry didn't become doctrinaire about this silliness until the 1980s, and he's no longer running the show.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Prime Directive is like a Netflix binge of a show you say you like. Sounds like a fantastic idea on paper but quickly becomes a messy slog that makes you regret ever starting out to begin with and when it's all over you realize you could have spent your time more efficiently than by worrying about every jot and tittle of something.

 

[Nerys Myk]

PD episode tend to be about breaking, bending or ignoring it. It's just something in the road our heroes need to find away around.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's just a dramatic conceit to create tension in a story, nothing more, nothing less. But made to sound noble so Roddenberry and later producers could pat themselves on their backs for embracing a philosophy that sounds constructive and ethical.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well if you remember the Tng episode where they commit suicide at a specified age, regardless of health. Was some moaning but they didn't get on the way.

 

[Oddish]

Well if you remember the Tng episode where they commit suicide at a specified age, regardless of health. Was some moaning but they didn't get on the way.

Remember "The Outcast", too. If not for the PD, they could have rescued Riker's friend before she got the 1984 treatment.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well if you remember the Tng episode where they commit suicide at a specified age, regardless of health. Was some moaning but they didn't get on the way.

No, that's not what happened in "Half a Life." TImicin request asylum, Picard granted it, and the ship was prepared to defend against any attacks to safeguard it. But when Timicin decided to return to the planet, Picard did not interfere with that free choice either. The Prime Directive was name-dropped to cite the reason why Picard could not force the aliens to change their ways, but that didn't preclude Picard from granting asylum when it was freely requested or backing it up with force.

 

[Oddish]

The episode where Trek gave tacit acceptance to age-ist genocide. It was a dark, dark day.