Ok. What is the chance of a Picard spinoff?

[TerryTrek]

You're not even trying to hide your bias. Most people at least try to put up a front. Though, to be honest, I'm not going to say what you think I will about it: I like that you put out there where you stand. You're naked about your open hypocrisy.

And I have no doubt that if Jack ever said, "I'm trying to save you all!", you'd find a way to say, "Yeah! But that's different!" But you'd also leave out the silent part, "Because he's male!"

That's why you'd rather not have Seven be the star of the show, even though she would be the Captain. And, in any other Star Trek series, -- including Discovery -- you'd think the show should focus on the Captain who would be the Main Hero. To say you're okay with a different type of arrangement in Picard but not Discovery is a double-standard. There's no two ways about it, from what I can see.

If it's not a double-standard, then I'd love to hear your explanation for how it's not. With specifics. Absolute Candor.

There's no explanation required. Even Discovery itself says Burnham the red angel has a savior complex, I just found that dialogue in the pilot pretty laughable. Almost as if it was written for a schlocky superhero CW series.

Jack, not so much a savior, despite coincidently having 'JC' as initials. Beverly has trained him to do the doctors without borders thing, but ultimately he was driven to see connections.... never fully understanding why. He's going to have a lot to figure out about who he truey is versus his programming in the future.

And it isn't my preference to have Seven as the show's narrative focus or not. I'm just going by what I've seen in Matalas' interviews about Jack being the Legacy that the show is about...and how we follow his story and perspective (the next, next generation) on this spinoff.

It works for me because I find the character quite entertaining. He's got a really fun, charming personality. He seems to be the only one that can make Seven giggle like a schoolgirl (that scene in 3x06). He brings a lot of levity to an otherwise serious group of characters. Lot of potential to mine there.

 

[Sci]

It works for me because I find the character quite entertaining.

Ed Speleers is a charming actor, but Jack as a character is just a retread of everything they already did with Soji (but this time played by a white guy).

He's got a really fun, charming personality. He seems to be the only one that can make Seven giggle like a schoolgirl

That is a pretty demeaning way to phrase the fact that they shared a laugh or two. "Giggle like a schoolgirl" also usually implies romantic interest; Seven is in a relationship and is his commanding officer. Pretty gross.

 

[Racefuel]

Seven is in a relationship and is his commanding officer.

There's really no indication that she is, anymore. Raffi's line about "my girlfriend left me" seems to have been an actual occurance in her sad-story backdrop cover

 

[fireproof78]

I wish I found Jack charismatic in any way.

 

[Sci]

There's really no indication that she is, anymore. Raffi's line about "my girlfriend left me" seems to have been an actual occurance in her sad-story backdrop cover

1) Seven and Raffi are, at least, in an "It's Complicated" with each other.

2) It's still gross to use that kind of language to describe Seven and Jack sharing a laugh.

 

[Nyotarules]

Commodore, tyvm

Actually the title is President Spot

 

[Nyotarules]

Can someone name me a time when a mainline character faced any real consequences for their actions? I do not count Kirks “demotion” to Captain as it’s what he really wanted

Michael Burnham, the one haters call a Mary Sue but the only main character, star of the show, who went to prison. And yet the haters keep hating

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wish I found Jack charismatic in any way.

He’s more more less Kelvin Kirk with the serial numbers rubbed off. We’ll see if they can do something more with the character.

 

[Lord Garth]

He’s more more less Kelvin Kirk with the serial numbers rubbed off. We’ll see if they can do something more with the character.

So, basically, he wants Kelvin Kirk doing Michael Burnham's thing. Jack Crusher everyone. Legacy Trek! TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT! Even though we all know that only really means TNG, DS9, and ENT.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

He’s more more less Kelvin Kirk with the serial numbers rubbed off. We’ll see if they can do something more with the character.

Yeah, that was my impression too. I wasn't particularly keen on him, and only really cared what happened to him for the sake of his parents.

I'm hoping that if we do get more of Jack, he'll settle in the way *Kelvin Kirk did by Beyond. Actual TOS Kirk was a much more likeable character than the parody of him that he's become "remembered as" in the public consciousness.

*EDIT

 

[Nyotarules]

What pulled me out of the show whenever the Jack character appeared was the fact that the actor does not look like a 24 year old youth, but he looks almost 40. If the script had made him Crusher's younger lover/husband instead of son I would have believed that instead. But male writers never give older female characters a younger lover..

 

[Lord Garth]

To be totally clear, I actually like the character of Jack Crusher. Just not as a lead. I thought Seven was the best character on VOY, they did a lot to move her character forward in PIC, and I see Picard as the transition point between Seven on Voyager and Seven on Legacy, should that come to pass. And Seven actually is the true bridge between generations. Seven was one of the last new main characters introduced before Star Trek went the way of prequels and reboots. And, unlike Patrick Stewart, Jeri Ryan is still young enough to be able to carry a series long-term. Whereas with Picard, I'm very glad we didn't end up with a situation like Dallas' 2010s revival where Larry Hagman died mid-way through.

 

[James Cole]

The whole reason Jack works in season 3 is he's charismatic and not annoying. Yeah, some tropes are involved. But tropes are involved in all projects... all they do is try to put a fresh veneer on them, and string them together in a competent way.

Meanwhile, look at Wesley Crusher. Super annoying, little charisma.

Would I like to see Jack as the primary lead of Legacy? No. That would be too much like the claustrophobic early DISCOVERY, and having him be the main character in every single episode would wear out the character's welcome, and overshadow Seven. But he would be a great part of the "opening credits" ensemble.

 

[fireproof78]

He’s more more less Kelvin Kirk with the serial numbers rubbed off. We’ll see if they can do something more with the character.

Eh, he lacks that certain something to make him appealing to me. He had brief moments, while Kelvin Kirk had good energy plus great moments.

 

[Lord Garth]

For the characters in terms of being the lead: The decision-making power lands with the Captain. That's ultimately why Burnham was finally made a Captain.

In terms of characters' experience levels:

Burnham went through four years of the Academy and had seven years of experience on the Shenzhou before DSC even started, and she was a First Officer on the verge of soon getting a Captaincy of her own... until "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" screwed that up. It took her three seasons to get back to the standing she had at the beginning of the series and finally become a Captain.

Kelvin Kirk went to the Academy for three years, and then leap-frogged straight to Captain. The 2009 Film already had time-skips. If they added a few more, that would've solved everything. But anyway, at least Kirk put in years (plural) at the Academy, took the Kobiyashi Maru, and actually saved Earth and saved the day instead of being saved. Unlike Jack, who had to be saved.

Seven of Nine effectively served four years on Voyager, had up to 20 years of transferrable experience with the Fenris Rangers, had recommendations from Admirals Janeway and Picard, and served as First Officer on the Titan for up to a year (we'll have to ignore that wine bottle at the beginning of PIC S2 saying "2401" and pretend that Present Day for the second season was 2400). So 25 years of experience, five of them on Starfleet ships, and then she's recommended to be promoted to Captain.

Jack Crusher goes through an accelerated program at the Academy in one year, and is made Counselor.

Between these four, Burnham is standing on the most solid ground, Seven works if you allow for transferrable and equivalent experience elsewhere, Kelvin Kirk is extremely shaky, and Jack the most so. Burnham, Seven, and even Kelvin Kirk all had more experience and all were First Officers or Captains. Jack is a Counselor who took crash-courses, had mom and dad pull strings, and isn't an XO or CO.

Jack Crusher, if the series revolves around him, and he's the only one who makes things happen, would be more "Mary Sue" or "Gary Stu" than any other character in Star Trek.

 

[Danja]

What pulled me out of the show whenever the Jack character appeared was the fact that the actor does not look like a 24 year old youth, but he looks almost 40.

Terry Matalas has said in interviews that Ed was cast because he wanted Jack to have a "world-weary" face. He wanted someone who looked as if he'd done everything.

Seven of Nine effectively served four years on Voyager, had up to 20 years of transferrable experience with the Fenris Rangers, had recommendations from Admirals Janeway and Picard, and served as First Officer on the Titan for up to a year (we'll have to ignore that wine bottle at the beginning of PIC S2 saying "2401" and pretend that Present Day for the second season was 2400). So 25 years of experience, five of them on Starfleet ships, and then she's recommended to be promoted to Captain.

There was her eighteen years of combat experience with the Borg prior to her coming aboard Voyager (plus her extensive experience with Borg tech).

She holds the rank of Queen of a Cube within the Collective (the rank equivalent of a Captain within Starfleet).

Jack Crusher goes through an accelerated program at the Academy in one year, and is made Counselor.

It's a fig leaf (the idea is to protect him from the Borg -- and the bureaucracy had to have him do SOMETHING).

 

[Sci]

Jack Crusher goes through an accelerated program at the Academy in one year, and is made Counselor.

I'm pretty sure Starfleet is essentially giving him credit for his service with Mariposa and for his time as, well, a revolutionary activist.

 

[TerryTrek]

That is a pretty demeaning way to phrase the fact that they shared a laugh or two. "Giggle like a schoolgirl" also usually implies romantic interest; Seven is in a relationship and is his commanding officer. Pretty gross.

No need to be offended.

We're fans talking about a fictional character. It's nothing demeaning against Jeri, who is very endearing. I find her giggle quite charming in interviews. And I'm she's not as uptight about these things.

It was great seeing Jack break Seven's perpetually angry persona and make her laugh. I knew that was a sign of their dynamic for Legacy. And it also shows that Jack has a personality and brings levity to the table. That's the kind of thing audiences would want in a series leading man.

There's potential for a fun dynamic between the two of them, and that needs to work for this show to work.

 

[TerryTrek]

For the characters in terms of being the lead: The decision-making power lands with the Captain. That's ultimately why Burnham was finally made a Captain.

In terms of characters' experience levels:

Burnham went through four years of the Academy and had seven years of experience on the Shenzhou before DSC even started, and she was a First Officer on the verge of soon getting a Captaincy of her own... until "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" screwed that up. It took her three seasons to get back to the standing she had at the beginning of the series and finally become a Captain.

Kelvin Kirk went to the Academy for three years, and then leap-frogged straight to Captain. The 2009 Film already had time-skips. If they added a few more, that would've solved everything. But anyway, at least Kirk put in years (plural) at the Academy, took the Kobiyashi Maru, and actually saved Earth and saved the day instead of being saved. Unlike Jack, who had to be saved.

Seven of Nine effectively served four years on Voyager, had up to 20 years of transferrable experience with the Fenris Rangers, had recommendations from Admirals Janeway and Picard, and served as First Officer on the Titan for up to a year (we'll have to ignore that wine bottle at the beginning of PIC S2 saying "2401" and pretend that Present Day for the second season was 2400). So 25 years of experience, five of them on Starfleet ships, and then she's recommended to be promoted to Captain.

Jack Crusher goes through an accelerated program at the Academy in one year, and is made Counselor.

Between these four, Burnham is standing on the most solid ground, Seven works if you allow for transferrable and equivalent experience elsewhere, Kelvin Kirk is extremely shaky, and Jack the most so. Burnham, Seven, and even Kelvin Kirk all had more experience and all were First Officers or Captains. Jack is a Counselor who took crash-courses, had mom and dad pull strings, and isn't an XO or CO.

Jack Crusher, if the series revolves around him, and he's the only one who makes things happen, would be more "Mary Sue" or "Gary Stu" than any other character in Star Trek.

That's an interesting breakdown, but it doesn't take into consideration that your protagonist can be a charming, fun character that audiences can use as a gateway to this world. Jack being the narrative-focus accomplishes that.

You can still have a Captain in charge, but the narrative revolving around Jack. Heck, in S3 Jack had way more importance and much more narrative importance (and more of an arc) than the Titan's commanding officers (Shaw and Seven).

He isn't Michael Burnham. Not a Mary Sue as you stated. He isn't going to save the Multiverse in his first adventure... that's not how Matalas writes Jack. If anything Jack (and the younger officers) needed the older generation to save them in the finale. Jack is a character still finding his way in this Star Trek universe, probably requiring Seven to mentor him on his journey, he's the audience proxy.

What pulled me out of the show whenever the Jack character appeared was the fact that the actor does not look like a 24 year old youth, but he looks almost 40. If the script had made him Crusher's younger lover/husband instead of son I would have believed that instead. But male writers never give older female characters a younger lover..

Have you seen the pictures of Sir Patrick in his 20s?

Speelers is well-cast. Matalas said he wanted an actor that could effectively play against Stewart, and had that Shakespearean quality in his delivery. It works.

 

[fireproof78]

If only he were interesting. He could be but the character is not leading man material, much less Starfleet captain material.