Spoilers An argument that the problem with the first two seasons was...

[locborg]

Has Star Trek as a franchise been in danger since 2017?

Yes it has, first of all we shouldn’t consider animated shows to be relevant to the franchise’s success. Pro and LD is nice at times but mostly a bonus for the time, there is no new live action Trek available.

As for the remaining 3 live action tv shows:

Disco was a financial and artistic disaster. The vast majority of viewers consider Disco to be a failed project.

SNW is promising in its very own contained timeframe. It is somewhat a reboot of TOS, has an episodic style. But it can’t shape Star Trek’s future because its setting is just too repetitive.

Picard S1 and S2 were deeply flawed and also not a success when it comes to audience numbers and reviews. Picard S3 overthrew everything (even SNW) and made a bold and demanding statement as how future Trek Tv could look like. And the audience agrees, in numbers and in reviews. This should make the execs of CBS think and reconsider their next steps. It’s also a heavy blow for Kurtzman that the only iteration of Trek which really is considered to be successful is the one, which separates itself most from the showrunners initial vision…

 

[HotRod]

So? Fandom Menace is the only thing that can still save the franchise. CBS keeps making bad decisions both creatively and business wise. Someone’s gotta kick them where it hurts…

No.

 

[Campe]

Yes it has, first of all we shouldn’t consider animated shows to be relevant to the franchise’s success. Pro and LD is nice at times but mostly a bonus for the time, there is no new live action Trek available.

As for the remaining 3 live action tv shows:

Disco was a financial and artistic disaster. The vast majority of viewers consider Disco to be a failed project.

SNW is promising in its very own contained timeframe. It is somewhat a reboot of TOS, has an episodic style. But it can’t shape Star Trek’s future because its setting is just too repetitive.

Picard S1 and S2 were deeply flawed and also not a success when it comes to audience numbers and reviews. Picard S3 overthrew everything (even SNW) and made a bold and demanding statement as how future Trek Tv could look like. And the audience agrees, in numbers and in reviews. This should make the execs of CBS think and reconsider their next steps. It’s also a heavy blow for Kurtzman that the only iteration of Trek which really is considered to be successful is the one, which separates itself most from the showrunners initial vision…

Nope. All of that is opinion. No one says you have to like the direction it’s going. But five series with another on the way is not a failure.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sudden surprise relatives
Main characters who don't start off talking to one another
Darkly lit sets.
Call backs to previous series that don't line up with established canon.
Drawing out the story to the very end in a hamfisted drive to create mystery.
Story not centered on the captain.

What series am I talking about?

 

[locborg]

Nope. All of that is opinion. No one says you have to like the direction it’s going. But five series with another on the way is not a failure.

Five series without a coherent idea on how to actually advance within the franchise is nevertheless a failed opportunity for a media company under immense financial pressure.

Star Trek serves as the flagship franchise for their whole Paramount+ streaming service. They are not doing well, once because they are late for the party (like 10 years too late) and secondly their franchises aren’t strong enough to carry a 10$ monthly membership fee. Paramount+ / CBS AA hasn’t been profitable since its inception.
Star Trek is in grave danger because CBS doesn’t get their shit together. Overall streaming numbers reached its peak and its a slippery slope from here..

https://www.nexttv.com/news/paramou...ut-streaming-losses-grow-to-dollar575-million

 

[Bad Thoughts]

BTW, don't say Matalas took out the politics. Season 2 replaced Past Tense's message with one that focuses on industry and technology and that depicted immigrants as lawless thugs. This season is a metaphor for how social media turns young people into woke robots.

 

[locborg]

This season is a metaphor for how social media turns young people into woke robots.

This idea didn’t even occur to me, but i can see how you would come to this interpretation. It just makes me root for Matalas even more…

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Picard S3 overthrew everything (even SNW) and made a bold and demanding statement as how future Trek Tv could look like.

Giving aging actors big paydays to pretend they still have the same energy they had playing characters from decades ago is not innovative.

 

[Citiprime]

However, in his defense... he only did what he has always done when it comes to Jean-Luc Picard: He added a lot of elements of himself to the character.

This dynamic has been an issue with some shows, especially ones where the actors get more power and get more input and control.

A recent example is the Sex and the City revival series, And Just Like That..., where Cynthia Nixon's Miranda Hobbes was brought closer to mirroring her own life. The storyline didn't go over well with a lot of fans of the original series.

I personally find Matalas' accomplishments to be overhyped. He was responsible for the second season, and looking at both seasons, we can looking forward to a slow drift towards less innovative, less challenging narratives and fascist politics. What might be different is that the constant reunions and ship porn won't be sustainable, revealing the still darkly lit sets and mystery boxes.

Fascist politics? I'm genuinely curious if there's anything which suggests he would take the franchise in that direction. I haven't seen anything outwardly advancing a right-wing/MAGA agenda in anything he's done this season. And, honestly, while I can't stand the YouTube channels that get their feelings hurt by any movie or TV show they claim is "woke," it was arguably good marketing to open a dialogue with those reviewers if you're trying to get the biggest possible audience for the series, as well as trying to get some of their audience, who're potential viewers, to give the series a new try.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Fascist politics? I'm genuinely curious if there's anything which suggests he would take the franchise in that direction.

See my other posts in this thread.

 

[Campe]

Five series without a coherent idea on how to actually advance within the franchise is nevertheless a failed opportunity for a media company under immense financial pressure.

Star Trek serves as the flagship franchise for their whole Paramount+ streaming service. They are not doing well, once because they are late for the party (like 10 years too late) and secondly their franchises aren’t strong enough to carry a 10$ monthly membership fee. Paramount+ / CBS AA hasn’t been profitable since its inception.
Star Trek is in grave danger because CBS doesn’t get their shit together. Overall streaming numbers reached its peak and its slippery slope from here..

As of Q4 2022, Paramount had 54 million subscribers. That’s approximately $6.5 billion in revenue. Is that overly successful? No. There have been some cutbacks. And there have been some casualties. But this is not just common to Paramount+. There was a streaming boom and it didn’t pay off as well as these entertainment companies would like.

But the concept that Star Trek has been an abject failure for Paramount+ has no basis in reality. Perhaps it’s not quite the success that the execs want, but if it were a failure, they would stop making it.

 

[Danja]

This season is a metaphor for how social media turns young people into woke robots.

What do you mean "woke robots"?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

What do you mean "woke robots"?

The young people are networked together to turn against the established political institutions, displacing the leaders who know better.

 

[Danja]

The young people are networked together to turn against the established political institutions, displacing the leaders who know better.

Your metaphor is strained.

I don't see young people killing their elders.

I see it as more of a metaphor for Covid-19 (a disease that targets some people but not others -- and the chaos it causes within society).

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Your metaphor is strained.

I don't see young people killing their elders.

I see it as more of a metaphor for Covid-19 (a disease that targets some people but not others).

The Borg reprogrammed the transporters in a way that would allow them to connect people who had not yet fully mentally matured in order to control them. Those younger people attacked, sometimes killed, the senior leadership.

 

[locborg]

Your metaphor is strained.

I don't see young people killing their elders.

Did you actually see episode 9?

Giving aging actors big paydays to pretend they still have the same energy they had playing characters from decades ago is not innovative.

Showing a middle aged chemistry teacher become a drug lord isn’t particularly innovative either. The way they presented the show, the cinematography, the screenwriting, the acting. This is what makes great and innovative tv. Stories get rehashed all the time it is a necessary evil, since most plotlines have already been told by other shows/movies.

2010-2020 was considered the golden age of television because of its quality storytelling. Discovery never reached this form of artistic elegance. Mainly because Kurtzman isn’t a good showrunner, he lacks vision.

Matalas did great with 12 monkeys. Give him the helm…

 

[HotRod]

only Star Trek season, which managed to reach the Nielsen Streaming Top 10

It's literally the first streaming Trek show to actually submit its numbers....

The vast majority of viewers consider Disco to be a failed project.

When did this poll happen? Did I miss it? Dammit!

Picard S3 overthrew everything (even SNW) and made a bold and demanding statement as how future Trek Tv could look like.

Nostalgia wank! All day! Everyday! Member Berries for all!!

It’s also a heavy blow for Kurtzman that the only iteration of Trek which really is considered to be successful is the one, which separates itself most from the showrunners initial vision…

It's a heavy blow for Kurtzman that a show he produced is successful?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Showing a middle aged chemistry teacher become a drug lord isn’t particularly innovative either.

That list is significantly shorter. There are more Star Wars sequels and Indiana Jones reboots and iCarly the Next Gens, ETC.

Give him the helm…

It's not sustainable. The actors will want more import. They'll start to think about how the show lines up with their personal opinions. I don't think Jeri Ryan will be niave to the fact that Seven and Raffi can't make it work season after season, but are always starting on the outs.

 

[Citiprime]

If you want to search for metaphors, couldn't you just as easily see this season as how the sides that lose and can't accept it (Trump/Changelings/Borg Queen) can still be dangerous only if those in power ignore the warnings and arrogantly believe that the systems of their institutions are incapable of being corrupted or defeated? That those who think it can’t happen here because our system won’t allow it sometimes end up with their capital under siege?

 

[locborg]

Perhaps it’s not quite the success that the execs want, but if it were a failure, they would stop making it.

No they wouldn’t. It’s the only cashcow franchise they have. They would just continue doing shitty Trek until they completely run out of money.

It's literally the first streaming Trek show to actually submit its numbers....

Studios usually releas numbers when a show is successful. They stop talking about numbers the second they don’t support their narrative. You don’t prematurely cancel a show by adding reshoots. Why are we even debating this? This only happens to failing tv projects. Successful shows don’t need reshoots. Reshoots are the epitome of failure…

Nostalgia wank! All day! Everyday! Member Berries for all!!

I guess you missed how Matalas not only created a nostalgic sendoff for the TNG crew, but at the same time laid the groundworks for a new show with a new cast.

It's a heavy blow for Kurtzman that a show he produced is successful?

Yes, because season 3 retcons many aspects of the ideas Kurtzman developed for season 1 and 2. Matalas had complete creative control, a clear sign that Kurtzman is no longer needed and in Treks way…

Jeri Ryan will be niave to the fact that Seven and Raffi can't make it work season after season, but are always starting on the outs.

Jeri Ryan is not an A-list actress. If she gets a job on a major streaming show, she will most likely take it without nagging about the screenplay.