25th century ranks

[Kamen Rider Blade]

On the contrary, your proposed "no divide" is fundamently and intrinistically far more elitist and divise than the streamlined "single track, two entry points" system that Starfleet has been shown as having no later than mid-TNG.

How so, everybody gets to enter in and learn / study at the same StarFleet Academy.

Because if you insist that "everyone is a commissioned officer" ie an Ensign or above, then only those who have schooling, connections, intelligence and mindset to spend four years on degree level schooling are allowed to be part of Starfleet, everyone else is excluded because they "aren't good enough".

But what is the degree in, not everybody is going down the "Tactical" or "Command" route.
Trade Skills and speciality is very welcomed.
Hell I went to a trade schoool of sorts and I'm very happy with it.

On the other hand, Starfleet -- recognising that practical, non-academic types can be useful if you play to their strengths, allows said people to initially take shorter more focused courses that lead to a specific role, then implicitly gives them if they wish to expand on their qualifications and get promotion to the managerial officer ranks in time. In fact, dialogue from Flashback seems to suggest that a motivated "Specialist" can actually gain promotion all the way to Ensign quicker via that route than the Academy (We don't know when Janice went for officer training, but she specifically tells Tuvok that she completed it in three years, rather than the four or more that new entry candidates spend there)

That's fine, that's what StarFleet Academy should be, a flexible University that has a "Common Course" needed for the basics of a StarFleet Officer without going through too much details in management / command. All the basics needed to be ½ Military Officer & ½ Scientific Explorer in a specialty trade of some sort. Doesn't really matter if you're a Scientist, Doctor, Engineer, Pilot, Combat Specialist, etc. There is room for everybody with every trade skill on a StarShip or StarBase.

Let the Students figure out what speciality are they going to start with and have a wide common General Education requirement to establish the basics so that they are ready for space travel, travel amongst fellow alien cadets, and onto alien planets, etc.

Then everybody can focus on what they need to do. We saw alot of that in Lower Decks where they all try out each department until they fit into the department along with the career path that they want to progress on.

 

[fireproof78]

There is room for everybody with every trade skill on a StarShip or StarBase.

This feels very much like a distinction without a difference.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

This feels very much like a distinction without a difference.

That means there are Billets for many job types / specialists.

Within the Science Department alone, you can have so many specialists or head of ___ science speciality.

Same with Medicine, same with Engineering.

 

[fireproof78]

That means there are Billets for many job types / specialists.

Within the Science Department alone, you can have so many specialists or head of ___ science speciality.

Same with Medicine, same with Engineering.

Ok. Now you're just fan fictioning. This idea as presented doesn't preclude enlisted and officers. It just adds another name to the existing system.

A distinction without a difference.

Reminds me of retail. Every spring the District manager comes in and wants to move the baseball department. Every year the store manager explains why it won't work because we've tried it.

Every year the baseball department stays the same.

 

[The Wormhole]

Wouldn't that make everybody's life easier?

Not really. Not everyone wants an officer's life and responsibilities. Take O'Brien for example, whose stated reason for not wanting a commission is that if he were an officer, he'd be expected to attend formal dinners with dignitaries and what not. Some people just want an ordinary job without all the social nonsense that comes with officer responsibilities and that's fine.

Or, look at the medical profession. You wouldn't eliminate the divide between doctors and nurses and have everyone who works in medicine be a doctor, would you? Of course not, that's just not a practical option. Same as eliminating the officer/enlisted divide and making everyone an officer.

 

[Racefuel]

I've always felt that the rank of "commodore" should be a rank, and that those personnel who held such a rank, would be in charge of a "starbase" or the flag ship of Stafleet. That is why Kirk should have been ranked "Commodore", when resuming command of the Enterprise, post-refit in TMP. The scene would have started out with Kirk overseeing the refit, with Captain Decker as his XO. I mean, that had THREE Captains posted on the Enterprise-A as of TFF...

Kirk was not intended to retain command of Enterprise, he was just meant to temporarily displace Decker for the V'ger crisis.
Previously he was Chief of Starfleet Operations, which is a flag position, thus he retained his admiralship presumably to resume the role.

Granted, they gave Decker a "temporary grade reduction"..for no real reason.

 

[fireproof78]

Granted, they gave Decker a "temporary grade reduction"..for no real reason

Drama....that's why.

 

[Racefuel]

Drama....that's why.

Yes, to create drama and tension, this is true.

 

[Racefuel]

About the whole..classless society and classless originization idea for starfleet, it doesn't have to do with class, merely education level.

Starfleet Academy is a service Academy. You leave not only with a commission but also with a university degree (presumably). In real life when you leave the US Naval Academy, West Point, the Air Force Academy, etc..you not only have a comission but you also have a degree in something.

The enlisted ranks skip the extra education either due to lack of desire or lack of ability and favor learning a trade to expedite the progress. You skip things like linguistics, diplomacy, history, etc and just focus on your trade craft.

It has nothing to do with caste or class, merely focus and education level.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Not really. Not everyone wants an officer's life and responsibilities. Take O'Brien for example, whose stated reason for not wanting a commission is that if he were an officer, he'd be expected to attend formal dinners with dignitaries and what not. Some people just want an ordinary job without all the social nonsense that comes with officer responsibilities and that's fine.

Not every Junior Ranking & Lower Ranking Officer will be invited to "Formal Dinners with Dignitaries", those are usually chosen by the members of the Senior Staff. And if you're not a social person, you can just let your higher up know that you don't want to deal with diplomactic functions if you don't have to. StarFleet is supposed to be understanding about different personality types within it's service. Look at Reginald Barclay. Young Reginald Barclay wouldn't be good at formal functions.
When he matured and ranked up, he could probably want to participate in them, but until then, he was kind of a shut-in.

Or, look at the medical profession. You wouldn't eliminate the divide between doctors and nurses and have everyone who works in medicine be a doctor, would you? Of course not, that's just not a practical option. Same as eliminating the officer/enlisted divide and making everyone an officer.

Those are different jobs, you wouldn't expect a Scientist to do a Doctors job. Within each major branch of the service, there are seperate jobs for everybody to train in.

The Officer / Enlisted divide is more about Management vs Grunt line worker than about different specialities.

About the whole..classless society and classless originization idea for starfleet, it doesn't have to do with class, merely education level.

Starfleet Academy is a service Academy. You leave not only with a commission but also with a university degree (presumably). In real life when you leave the US Naval Academy, West Point, the Air Force Academy, etc..you not only have a comission but you also have a degree in something.

The enlisted ranks skip the extra education either due to lack of desire or lack of ability and favor learning a trade to expedite the progress. You skip things like linguistics, diplomacy, history, etc and just focus on your trade craft.

It has nothing to do with caste or class, merely focus and education level.

That concept is really no different from a unified system.

Not everybody is going to train in "Linguistics, Diplomacy, History".

Many people in StarFleet would focus on the speciality that they wanted before shipping out to their first assignment.

Everybody would be a "StarFleet Officer", just with different focuses & specialties.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

How so, everybody gets to enter in and learn / study at the same StarFleet Academy.

Nope. Starfleet Academy is a University, even the most open of those is elitest and exclusionary by definition because only a certain type of person can study at that level.

But what is the degree in, not everybody is going down the "Tactical" or "Command" route.
Trade Skills and speciality is very welcomed.
Hell I went to a trade schoool of sorts and I'm very happy with it.

Then you would be banned from "your" Starfleet, because you're not "smart enough", only intellectuals that can meet the requirements for at least a Bachelor's Degree would be permitted to work in Starfleet under Gene's "everyone is a commissioned officer" system.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Nope. Starfleet Academy is a University, even the most open of those is elitest and exclusionary by definition because only a certain type of person can study at that level.

Oh? There are some really low bar Universities out there.
What Academic Level/Barrier are you setting to require people to study / learn at StarFleet Academy?

Then you would be banned from "your" Starfleet, because you're not "smart enough", only intellectuals that can meet the requirements for at least a Bachelor's Degree would be permitted to work in Starfleet under Gene's "everyone is a commissioned officer" system.

How so? I still got a "Bachelor's degree" in a specialty of Computer Science.
I'd technically be in the Engineering Division.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Oh? There are some really low bar Universities out there.
What Academic Level/Barrier are you setting to require people to study / learn at StarFleet Academy?

The ability to get a Bachelor's Degree or better.

Gene was quite specific on that in his "all officers" pitch.

How so? I still got a "Bachelor's degree" in a specialty of Computer Science. I'd technically be in the Engineering Division.

Okay, regional differences in terminology I guess. In my experience, trade schools are focused on practical learning courses and don't award full Bacheor's degrees but rather (high-school level) diplomas and specialist certificates, which wouldn't be enough to qualify for Starfleet under the American-sentric "all commissioned officers" model above.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Okay, regional differences in terminology I guess. In my experience, trade schools are focused on practical learning courses and don't award full Bacheor's degrees but rather (high-school level) diplomas and specialist certificates, which wouldn't be enough to qualify for Starfleet under the American-sentric "all commissioned officers" model above.

HS degrees are just that, HS degrees.
You should've gotten them during HS, before you enter college.

The vast majority that enter college already have a HS degree.

Trade Schools are a whole different thing.
For my Trade Schools, we get the equivalent of a Bachelors degree with typical (General Ed requirements) to meet Federal Scholastic Educational Accreditation, then our specialty of choice takes up the majority of our time and we dive very deep into our field of study and end up with a Bachelors in it. It was all "Hands-On" learning. It was hard, but every moment was worth it IMO.

It's not impossible by any stretch of the imagination to graduate from my school, it just takes some brain power, lots of hard work & dedication.

My Freshmen class started with ~150-160 students
During Sophmore year, we had ~75-80 students left, everybody else quit because it was "Too Hard" or other excuses.
By the 3rd year, we had ~35-40 students left
By the 4th year, we had ~18-25 students left that graduated that year.

So no, it wasn't impossible, was it hard, yes. But the challenge was worth it IMO.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

HS degrees are just that, HS degrees.
You should've gotten them during HS, before you enter college.

They're diplomas not degrees.

And someone with only a "high school education" isn't good enough for Starfleet under the "everyone's an officer" scheme.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

They're diplomas not degrees.

And someone with only a "high school education" isn't good enough for Starfleet under the "everyone's an officer" scheme.

What's the College Graduation rate in your country?
In the US, we're at 35-37% for a Bachelor's degree.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

About 23% apparently.

Not sure what your point is though?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

About 23% apparently.

Not sure what your point is though?

By the 24th century, College Graduation rates should be much higher than what we have now.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Even if that's true, forcing everyone who wants to contribute to go through that is unnecessarily elitist and unmeritocratic.

Because that statistic is graduation rate, so implicitly relative to applicants not total population.

For instance, statistics suggest that between 40 and 60% of US citizen attend college, so if only ~36% graduate, then only 14-22% of the total population would be eligible for Starfleet service in any capacity.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Even if that's true, forcing everyone who wants to contribute to go through that is unnecessarily elitist and unmeritocratic.

Because that statistic is graduation rate, so implicitly relative to applicants not total population.

For instance, statistics suggest that between 40 and 60% of US citizen attend college, so if only ~36% graduate, then only 14-22% of the total population would be eligible for Starfleet service in any capacity.

Then it's societies job to make them ready for college and get rid of barriers.

https://collegestats.org/articles/beware-the-top-5-reasons-for-dropping-out-of-college/

In the UFP Utopian future, reason #1 wouldn't be an issue.
Cost of Education is gone or taken care of for you or everything is regulated to be dirt cheap.

Reason 2: Unprepared for Academic Demands
A well educated society would help with the rest of the reasons most students drop out

Reason 3: Lack of Discipline
A well educated society with good values like Japan would instill Discipline from a young age.

Not much you can do about Reasons 4/5:
Reason 4: Unhappy with The School or College Experience
If you don't like Academic life, then StarFleet Academy wouldn't be for you.
Doesn't matter if it's Trade School or any other School.
Modern School life has alot of learning that has to be taught, even in trades.

Reason 5: Life Happens
Not much you can do about this, some unforseen things happen and you can't focus on your current StarFleet goals.